Evidence? Proof?



Im not even going to go over this again. Ive already replied to this same crap 20 times already. Yet you continue to repeat it again and again and again. Let me repaste what I said earlier. The same thing you CONTINUE TO IGNORE AND INSTEAD POST THIS IDIOTIC MOHE CRAP AGAIN AND AGAIN

Is that your only evidence? The mohe were primitive people, though they wern't originally Korean people. They became Koreans later on. They became the people of Balhae. If you dig deep enough all countries were made up of various tribes that cannot be described as truly a part of their country during that time period. The Spanish, Brits and French who colonized America were Europeon but they eventually became American. Thats no different from the Mohe who became Balhae which in turn was a Korean kingdom. More importantly Mohe was a servent state of Goguryo. Not in the sense of tribute, but a literal servant.

Balhae was founded by a Koguryo general Dae Jung Sang and his son Dae Jo Yong(who became the first emperor). Dae Jo Yong and Jung Sang led a massive migration of Koguryo peoples as well as Mohe peoples and established Balhae by joining forces with Mohe general. Balhae defeated Tang. They defeated them because THEY DIDNT WANT TO BE CHINESE. On the contrary when Balhae fell, they(royalty, nobles, commoners etc) fled to Koryo where they were welcomed with open arms by Koryo as brothers. Both Koryo and Balhae regarded themselves as the successor states to Goguryo and brothers. The people of Balhae regarded themselves as brothers to Koryo, not China. If they didnt the the people of Balhae wouldnt have fled to Koryo, and Koryo wouldnt have welcomed them with open arms. Further proof that Balhae was Korean and that Koryo considered them Korean over a thousand years ago. Compare that to Chinas pathetic claim that isnt even 8 years old.

Its Koreans claim which is over a thousand years old
vs
Chinas claim which isnt even 8 years old.

I have Mohe blood in me. Does that make me non-Korean?



WRONG. You ignored it because those professors and historians at Peking university are infinitely more intelligent and credible then you are you.



Its not the Chosun daily that claims that Peking universities history department sides with Korea. Its the senior Chinese professor at Peking university who says it. It comes straight from the professors mouth. What more evidence do you need? Do you know more about Peking universities history department then that professor? Are you smarter then him and his colleagues? What makes you so credible to go against his research? Pity you lack the ability to read and seem to possess an abundance of ignoring peoples arguments.



That sounds awfully suspicious and seems to be more his biased interpretation of that text rather than fact. I will get back on this though. Read my next post that deals with e your 470,000 claim.



You correct your mistakes? You mean things like that stupid Samsung bribery claim. That Genghis Kahn is Chinese yet Mohe people can never be Korean? You dont even try to debate with me. You ignore 95% of the good points I make and just bring up that stupid Mohe Mohe comment WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS DEBATE



I already proved this was wrong(which you conveniently ignored. China registered only 30,000 families back to China. Koguryo had 700,000 families. Heck it had over 600,000 troops at the end of the war according to Chinese records. If we include women, children, the elderly, handicapped, royalty, aristocracy, foreigners, draft dodgees, slaves and other groups of people who did not fight. We could easily see that Goguryeo had a lot more families then 30,000.

If China took 30,000, what happened to the remaining 670,000. You have yet to reply to this comment. You continue to ignore it again and again.



My evidence happens to include historical events, factual data and logic. If my evidence is so weak and empty, WHY THE HELL DO YOU IGNORE 95% OF IT? You dont reply to the good points I make. Instead you bring up the Mohe crap again and again.



I have Mohe blood. Does that make me non-Korean? John F. Kennedy had Irish blood. Does that make him non American? Will Smith has African blood. Does that make him non American? Do you still not see how stupid your logic is? I dont know how many times I have to repeat myself.



How exactly is it apples and oranges. What difference is there. Please enlighten me on why its so different. You keep on repeating the apples and orange excuse yet you never explain why its different. And I seriously doubt you cant without some insane mental gymnastics(retarded excuses).

First and foremost you lack a source. I scoured all over the internet looking for the 470,000 claim and the ONLY place I could find it was on a Chinese history forum made by a Chinese nationalist like yourself. What some guy says over an internet forum argument by no means proves anything. If you want to convince the people here, youre going to need a real source. Not someones opinion.

The Chinese guy in that forum also used an obscure book the Liao Shi for his numbers. The Liao Shi cannot be found much less bought in the west. Ive searched all over the internet for it as well as my local library and plan to go to my bookstore. I cant find it anywhere in the US or Europe. Not even amazon.com nor ebay has it. For all I know, he could be BSing everyone and making numbers up. One of the members of that site requested that Chinese guy provide credible links to backup his claims which he refused to bring up. More then likely you're simply parroting the 470,000 number as well. Prove to me that the 470,000 number is legitimate.

The 100,000 for Koryo and 470,000 for Manchuria(notice I didnt say China, ill explain later) also comes from 2 entirely different sources during 2 entirely different time periods. I would understand if they came from the same source but they dont. Numbers can vary widely in different sources. For example some past historians claimed that the 300 Spartans faced a Persian army of 2 million. While other sources claim the number to be around 20,000. What a big difference and goes to show how idiotic it is to use one source for Koryos numbers and an entirely different source for Manchurias. An ironic fact you should consider is that the same source that states the 470,000 number also states that "a significant portion" of the population fled to Koryo. THEY DO NOT GIVE NUMBERS FOR THE KORYO MIGRATION. They only state that the migration was very large. Which could be another way of saying Koryo absorbed most of the population. Too bad you're just parroting the biased selective information of 2 entirely different sources by some idiot on the internet.

And how exactly can you assess the validity of the 470,000 number? What accurate methods did the people back then use to obtain the numbers 470,000 and 100,000 people who fled? How could they accurately measure such a chaotic event. Unlike the 30,000 Koguryo citizens who were registered and taken to China. How exactly did they accurately estimate 470,000 Balhe citizens randomly fleeing to different places? Thats physically impossible. None of them were registered or made their prescence known. The migrations occured instanteously. It was sporadic, chaotic, unpredictable, random and took course over a long period of time. Its impossible to accurate guess back then as it is today with accuracy. The number is nothing more then a guess.

To make matters worse, the Liao Shi was compiled by a single person who lived 416 years after Balhae fell. Its hard enough to estimate the number of people fleeing Balhae in random directions all at once. How exactly did single guy 700 years ago get the number 460,000 for an event that happened 416 years before his time? Its preposterous. And did the Liao Shi really make the 460,000 claim or are you parroting what that guy over the internet said?

Another factor you fail to mention is that those Balhae people didnt flee to Song China. They fled to mostly Manchuria which wasnt a part of China back then. It wouldnt be a part of China until about 1000 years later. Over the centuries the Balhae people who fled to Manchuria lost their identity and became different nationalities. Much like how white Americans today no longer consider themselves British, French germans etc. Thus your china claim is invalid because they never became Chinese. They didnt flee to Song China. They fled to Korea or stayed in Manchuria. They became Koreans, Jurchens, Manchurians etc etc. The Koreans of course do not claim the Jurchens and Manchurians. In fact only a tiny tiny tiny number actually fled to Song China(according to the stuff you brought up). I know what youre going to say next. That since Manchuria is now a part of China(actually it should be China being a part of Manchuria) that it makes Balhae a part of China. Well I have the perfect counter for that stupid comment.

Heres what Pankaj Mohan, an Indian Asian Studies teacher at the University of Sydney has to say about your logic-

“If today is the standard, then are you saying that the Buddha is a Nepalese because his birth place is now part of Nepal?” Winding up, he continued, “If China one day annexed Nepal, then would that mean that Buddha would become a Chinese? One’s history cannot change with borders.”

http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2470382

Yes, EAD. I will be back to make contributions. I invite all Koreans to make contributions providing sound reasoning and evidence so that we can always refer back to this thread against these retarded, blind, ignorant, imperialistic, nationalistic Chinese trolls. If any reasonable Chinese want to make an objective, LOGICAL, backed-up with evidence (3rd party sources) contributions, it would be appreciated.

I will be back in several hours.

And Lite, I know what kind of person you are. You always try to get the last word and then request the mods to close the topic. Thus preventing me from replying. Obviously you are unable to debate properly with other people and resort to topic closings to satisfy your ego. Why dont you stand your ground and actually debate this time.
===============================================
Lite's logic

1. Genghis Kahn is Chinese because he fought and mass murdered the Chinese. Even though he doesnt have a drop of Chinese blood within him.

2. Mohe cannot possible be Koreans even though they are genetically and physically identical, and even if they live together, breed together, work together, are citizens of the same nation etc etc.

3. I have Mohe blood and so do my parents. Therefore I am not Korean.

4. Anyone who has a Korean ancestor that isnt 100% Korean is not a real Korean.

3. According to Lites logic, all white Americans are not American citizens. They are Europeons no matter how long their ancestors live in America.

4. African americans like Halley Barry and Will Smith are Africans. Not Americans.

Conclusion: The troll Lite believes that Genghis Kahn is Chinese even though he is 100% Mongolian, lived in Mongolia for most of his life and mass murdered more Chinese citizens then the Japanese did. On the other hand Mohe can never be Koreans no matter what. The same applies to white Americans and African Americans.

LOL, and even Mohe share the same blood with Koreans. I don't know how anyone can be as ignorant as Lite.

Hopefully the rest of the board will get to know the shear idiocy of Lites arguments.

He believes that Genghis is Chinese.That any professor that sides with Korea(which happen to be all professors outside of China) are secretly being bribed by Samsung. That Mohe people cannot become Korean no matter how long they live in Korea, how well they've integrated etc etc. Yet someone like Genghis Kahn who was 100% Mongolian and who despised the Chinese and murdered millions of them is somehow Chinese. He also believes that any country that established a relationship with the Chinese emperor(which happens to be all of Asia) is a part of China.

He doesnt listen to peoples arguments. He ignores 95% of the stuff I write because he cant counter them. He reposts the same comment again and again even though they've been countered and shot down a billion times. He requests the mods to close topics whenever he's losing and makes sure he gets the last word before it closes.

Lite believes that since China absorbed only 30k out of 700k Koguryo people. That Koguryo belongs to China and not Korea who absorbed the remaining 670K. The list goes on and on.

Ultranationalist Chinese are like that. Say the same $hit over and over, once they know they lost, they try to relate us to Southeast Asians. It's an endless cycle of stupidity. Wish there was some ignore feature on here.

Lite is oblivious to the fact that its his opinions against the worlds. You have Harvard scholar Mark Byington who asserts that Koguryo is Korean. R. Sh. Djarylgashinova of Russian Academy of Science Institute of Archaeology and Ethnography who supports Korea on this issue. Heck you even have Chinese professors who side with Korea. Peking university professor Song Chengyou and the entire history department at Peking university asserts that Koguryo is Korean. O. Batsaikhan Mongolian historian. Pankaj Mohan of the University of Sydney. J. B. Duncan of the University of California Los Angeles. The list goes on and on.

Type Goguryeo on google, yahoo or any other search engine. They all list it as a Korean kingdom.

Go to Amazon.com and type Koguryo/Goguryeo. All the books written by non-Koreans label it as a Korean kingdom. Why is that?

Yet Lite believes hes somehow smarter then all those professors and scholars who side with Korea. He believes that his opinions trump the decades of experience and research these professors and scholars put into the subject. He is a malignant narcissist who cannot admit defeat and somehow considers himself an expert on this subject. What a joke.

Do you know what excuse is for all those foreigners who support Korea on this issue while bashing Chinas theft of it? He believes that every single one of them is secretly being paid for by Samsung. What a joke.

Nice avatar!

biter!!




It is true that most chinese nerds have the habit of repeating the samething over and over until it sounds true to them. With chinese nerds its always about whos fault or whos side and to ignore the actual reason behind it. They will argue for the sake of arguing because they cant win at anything else.

Korean nerds just sock you in the face and play star craft.

wow i cant believe i just made a starcraft joke..

i gave news report and no that was not enough for you. then came your childish reponse "oh, i want see the video footage of it, i want intellegnence report."



there are a lot more became chinese and manchu. what make them all korean? what makes it a korean state? just your wild claims as always.



there came your wild assumptions again! they also don't want to be koreans either. they are your enemy, while accepted Tang china's call and became a tributary state of tang china.


is that why they were enemy to your people? they were refugees for god sake. they flee to where they can live. more were in china than in koryo. of course the small number than went to koryo became korean, but that doesn't mean balhae is korean. i'll take a leaf out of your stupid comparison book here: you are basically saying because europeans moved to america, european states must be american states.




firstly i doubt your source. secondly you basically saying anyone who agrees with you must be a genius, anyone who disagrees is an idiot. is that logical?



of course some became korean, but does that make all of the mohe korean? obviously not.




you are saying just because a few mohe from balhea fleed to koryo, all mohe must be korean, balhea must be a korean state. that is just plain silly.

no. the comparison is this: you are basically saying because europeans moved to america, european countries must be american.

What makes Kokuryo a Chinese state besides your word over various Western and even Peking experts that say that Kokuryo is Korean and had constant clashes with Chinese? What makes your word so special?



You are just saying the same $hit over and over for the sake of arguments when EAD already debunked your claims. You aren't involving yourself in any intelligent discussion, but portraying your ignorance and unwillingness to learn in an offensive way. I suggest you move and troll somewhere else.

they are not opinon, but from ancient record. unlike you, who just love to make unfounded claims.






http://baike.baidu.com/view/85904.htm , quoted anciet sources. i provided original chinese text in earlier posts.





yes they flee to dongbei china, they are manchu and later became chinese. clear enough?



not only because most population moved into china, balhea itself is a tributary state of china. chinese bestowed the kings and they call themselves sujects. on the other hand, balhea is the enemy of koryo. what do you have to claim they are korean except a small number of them moved to korea? nothing.

you don't know what kind of person i am. i never requested that thread to be closed.



i never said that Genghis Kahn was chinese. you just love to make up stuff don't you.



again a distortion of what i said. i never said a few mohe from balhae who moved to koryo later didn't became korean. you are saying just because a few mohe from balhea fled to koryo, all mohe must be korean, balhea must be a korean state. that is just plain silly.

they can do genetic report from a thousand years ago? wow.

basically you claim that a portion of mohe from balhea moved to korea so balhea is korean, while all mogolia became part of china, the mogolians are not chinese. great logic indeed.

once again you start making up stuff. i never said Genghis Khan was chinese. quote where i said it? i said "the idea that Genghis Khan is a chinese is questionable, but not completely fatuous". in the very first reply to you i posted.



again you lied. i quoted ancient source that at one time china absorbed 38000 korguyo families, while silla obsorbed 4000 . then i quoted researchers saying up to half of korguyo residents moved to china, while 1/8 moved to silla. you simply countered the evidence with your wild assumptions that silla absorbed all. that's just silly.

how typical. your so-called evidence is merely your empty statements and wild assumptions.

you should just give up lite. You are sounding more inane than ever.

It's complete bull shiit that Gaogouli and Bohai had anything to do with Korea. Just Check the time line you will understand.


Gaogouli was defeated by a Silla-Tang alliance in 668 CE

Koryeo Dynasty established in 918 CE

Balhae collapsed in 926 CE

Unified Silla collapsed in 935 CE

Samguk Sagi, the oldest Korean history book completed in 1145 CE during the Koryeo dynasty.


You can easily tell that if Koryeo people believed Bohai was a Korean-related kingdom, they would have had compiled the Bohai history into Korea’s first history book, Samguk Sagi. And the book would have been renamed “Saguk Sagi” instead (the History of Four kingdoms). And they did not do so even 100 years after the collapse of Bohai. Remember? Koreyo did include Gaogouli into Samguk Sagi even though Gaogouli was destroyed 477 years before the book was completed. Koreyo could have and SHOULD HAVE done so if they indeed seen Bohai as a Korean kingdom. Apparently they did not think so.

The fact of matter was that the United Silla (the direct predecessor of Koryeo) had very tense relations with Bohai and built a lengthy defensive wall against Bohai for much of the entire history of Bohai. And the United Silla belittled Bohai and openly called it a parasitic state. Ya sure….Bohai was a Korean kingdom.

Don’t give us BS that Koryeo provided safe heaven to Bohai remnants, so Koreans can claim Bohai History. Koryeo’s Bohai refugee policy was a political decision against surging Khitans. We all know that Bohai was a secondary threat to Koreyo comparing to Khitans. Actually Bohai was a buffer between Khitan in the west and Koryeo in the east. Accepting Bohai refugees was a rally call to gather potential allies against Khitans. Not to mention, Bohai refugees fled to Jurchen area and even North Song in large numbers. So Koreans can forget about claming Bohai 1000 years later. No one is going to believe your CRAPS. And not to mention that Bohai was clearly a Jurchen Tungusic kingdom that had 0 relation to Koreans.








As for Gaogouli, there are way too many evidences indicated that it was not related Korean people. It was the greatest enemy of Koreans like Khitans to Koryeo. Gaogouli people did not speak Korean language. Its power base never situated at the center of Korean culture sphere such as Seoul, Kaesong, or Gyeongju. The records from Koryeo dynasty considered the Pyongyong region as a northern frontier. Actually much of the northeast and northwest of the Korean Peninsula were regarded as no man’s land inhabited by Wild People by Koryeo court.


We also know that modern Koreans only carry Silla tradition and speak a Silla language. Even in this day of age, the most powerful modern Korean politicians all come from the nerve cener of the past Silla region such as Gyeongsang provinces. Not to mention that the major clans of major Korean Surnames (account for 60% of total population) such as Choi, Yi, Kim and Park. all have a known Silla origin.


All your past immediated neighbors called Koreans “Silla People” even after Silla was replaced by Koryeo dynasty, then by Joesen Dynasty. Khitans never called Koreyo people Koreyo or Gaogouli. They believed they were the successor of Gaogouli and always called Koreyo people by the name of Silla or Saro. Bohai people most likely called Koreans Silla as well because they believe they were the successor of Gaogouli. Jurchens and Manchus always called Koreans people Sogol or Solho (derived from the word Silla). Mongols always called Koreans “Solongro”( meaning people of the east). Heck…..Even today’s Koreans still call its capital city “Seoul”, which directly derives from the native name of Silla - “ Seorabol”. If you were to be descents of Gaogouli, you would have named your capital city something like xxx骨 or xxx乎 instead of a silla word “Seoul”.

Due to geographic devision between Song China and Koryeo created by Khitan, Song Chinese were fooled to believe Koryeo’s claim on Gaogouli (but with suspicion of course and left notes and comments about untraceable lineage between Koryeo and Gaogouli) Song China mostly knew the fact that Koryeo and Gaogouli were unrelated. However, for the sake of finding a Korean ally against Khitans, they let Koreans sneak in its Gaogouli claim. It was a dead kingdom anyway.

The bottom line is that who is going to believe Korean’s claims on Gaogouli when your country doesn’t even have any primary records about Gaogouli. The entire Gaogouli section of Samguk Sagi was COPIED from Chinese sources almost 500 years after Gaogouli was vanished. Actually near 100% of the primary source regarding Gaogouli was recorded by Chinese and by Chinese only. And the majority of Gaogouli artifacts, archaeological finds, and ruins are all in China.

WHO IS GOING TO BELIEVE YOUR CLAIMS WHEN YOU CAN ONLY PROVIDE TOY STELES, TOY ARTIFACTS, IMAGINARY DRAMAS, AND COPIED HISTROY RECORDS ABOUT GAOGOULI?




Look!! This is the REAL THING. Not the toy you guys have.

I don't dispute the Korean claim many Gaogouli people became Koreans. But some became Chinese as well, and obviously they were located in modern China and had a strong historical connection to ancient China.

It's silly to debate who owns what. we were all involved with it. I don't know what's the argument? We consider Yuan a Chinese dyansty, just as I'm sure the Mongols consider Yuan a mongol history. I really think all the fuss is due to Koreans not willing to share!

Goguryeo is Korean.

Stop making yourself looking foolish.

What the heck do chinese try to tell Koreans what happened 600-900 AD????


Nobody knows what happened after Koguryeos fall but it definitely was not
a "independent state" LOL

we consider Yuan Chinese because Kublai Khan assimilated. He willingly took on the title of emperor, he adopted Chinese era names and bureaucracy. Not unlike the other Non Han emperors that took over the middle kingdom. Even other Mongols outside of China thought he was being too "Chinese" towards the end.


HOWEVER, "Yuan Dynasty = the Mongol Empire" is false, they refer to different things

if you look at maps, the Mongol Empire was enormous. Yuan Dynasty was not nearly the size at all.



there is a distinction, and Chinese would/should never claim the Mongol Empire.

ps. this doesnt have anything to do with the topic, so i apologize. im hoping if there are any replies to me, it will be in a different thread.

That isnt evidence. You claimed that all pro-Korean scholars were payed for by Samsung. Wheres the evidence? Wheres the financial records? Until you prove universities and people like Mark Byington, R. Sh. Djarylgashinova, Peking university, Harvard, Song Chengyou, O. Batsaikhan, Pankaj Mohan ,J. B. Duncan etc etc etc ARE ALL PAID BY SAMSUNG you have no case and are making nothing more then troll comments.

If you dont prove it then this is just another example of you being an idiot and bull$hitting your way with more excuses. WHERES THE EVIDENCE?



But the Balhae people wern't Manchu's genius. If Mexico swallowed America, does that mean the entire world belongs to them because America has people from all around the world?. Historical records indicate that the Balhae people rarely fled to Song China. Most fled to Korea and its surrounding areas. By your idiotic logic, African people are Chinese because we are all descended from them. Words cannot describe the shear stupidity of your arguments so I decided to construct a picture.



Thats right folks. According to some idiot, Balhae and Goguryeo = Chinese because the Manchus were descended from them. Just like how Chimpanzees, fish and bacteria are all Chinese because they are the ancestors of China.



If they didnt want to become Korean, why did their royalty, citizens and subjects flee to Korea? Why did Koryo in return accept them with open arms? Why didnt Koryo just slaughter them with their cavalry if they didnt want them inside Koryo? Why did the both refer to themselves as successors to Koguryo and blood brothers? Why didnt they take refugee in Song China? Im trying to make this is as simple as possible for you to understand but you simply cannot grasp such obvious facts. I even drew a little cartoon to help your juvenile mind understand your own pitiful arguments.





You doubt my source? My source COMES STRAIGHT FROM THE PROFESSORS MOUTH.
How the hell can you doubt it? If you still doubt it, then give evidence that Peking universities senior historian never made such a comment. I want evidence, not your own danm opinions.



If you cant provide it, then shut the hell up. Furthermore disagreeing with a genius is fine IF AND ONLY IF YOU CAN MAKE A LOGICAL ARGUMENT TO SHOW WHY HE IS WRONG. Youve failed to do. Not once, not twice but a trillion times. And its not just you against him. Its you again the entire world. Everyone outside of China and some professors who are brave enought within China ALL SIDE WITH KOREA. Why is that? Oh let me guess, its because of Samsung?





Korean kingdom plus Mohe living in that Korean kingdom = Koreans numbnuts. Im Mohe and so are a large percentage of Koreans. By your own idiotic logic, most of the people in China arn't China since they all have ancestors in the past who wern't pure 100% Chinese. In fact its not most. ALL chinese people today have foreign non-pure han blood.





Few? Wheres the evidence?



Thats the exact same logic you used to Chinas ownership of Balhae and Goguryeo genius.



Its his opinion because he selectively choose two different sources with differing numbers. Im not going to go over this again. You ignored 99% of the second post I made. The same post that would answer this stupid question.

Jesus Christ another freakin repeat question. Did you not read the second post I made in this topic. That long as post that answered every single one of your pathetic questions and arguments? Here let me repost it again. Hopefully you will read it this time.
===
First and foremost you lack a source. I scoured all over the internet looking for the 470,000 claim and the ONLY place I could find it was on a Chinese history forum made by a Chinese nationalist like yourself. What some guy says over an internet forum argument by no means proves anything. If you want to convince the people here, youre going to need a real source. Not someones opinion.

The Chinese guy in that forum also used an obscure book the Liao Shi for his numbers. The Liao Shi cannot be found much less bought in the west. Ive searched all over the internet for it as well as my local library and plan to go to my bookstore. I cant find it anywhere in the US or Europe. Not even amazon.com nor ebay has it. For all I know, he could be BSing everyone and making numbers up. One of the members of that site requested that Chinese guy provide credible links to backup his claims which he refused to bring up. More then likely you're simply parroting the 470,000 number as well. Prove to me that the 470,000 number is legitimate.

The 100,000 for Koryo and 470,000 for Manchuria(notice I didnt say China, ill explain later) also comes from 2 entirely different sources during 2 entirely different time periods. I would understand if they came from the same source but they dont. Numbers can vary widely in different sources. For example some past historians claimed that the 300 Spartans faced a Persian army of 2 million. While other sources claim the number to be around 20,000. What a big difference and goes to show how idiotic it is to use one source for Koryos numbers and an entirely different source for Manchurias. An ironic fact you should consider is that the same source that states the 470,000 number also states that "a significant portion" of the population fled to Koryo. THEY DO NOT GIVE NUMBERS FOR THE KORYO MIGRATION. They only state that the migration was very large. Which could be another way of saying Koryo absorbed most of the population. Too bad you're just parroting the biased selective information of 2 entirely different sources by some idiot on the internet.

And how exactly can you assess the validity of the 470,000 number? What accurate methods did the people back then use to obtain the numbers 470,000 and 100,000 people who fled? How could they accurately measure such a chaotic event. Unlike the 30,000 Koguryo citizens who were registered and taken to China. How exactly did they accurately estimate 470,000 Balhe citizens randomly fleeing to different places? Thats physically impossible. None of them were registered or made their prescence known. The migrations occured instanteously. It was sporadic, chaotic, unpredictable, random and took course over a long period of time. Its impossible to accurate guess back then as it is today with accuracy. The number is nothing more then a guess.

To make matters worse, the Liao Shi was compiled by a single person who lived 416 years after Balhae fell. Its hard enough to estimate the number of people fleeing Balhae in random directions all at once. How exactly did single guy 700 years ago get the number 460,000 for an event that happened 416 years before his time? Its preposterous. And did the Liao Shi really make the 460,000 claim or are you parroting what that guy over the internet said?

Another factor you fail to mention is that those Balhae people didnt flee to Song China. They fled to mostly Manchuria which wasnt a part of China back then. It wouldnt be a part of China until about 1000 years later. Over the centuries the Balhae people who fled to Manchuria lost their identity and became different nationalities. Much like how white Americans today no longer consider themselves British, French germans etc. Thus your china claim is invalid because they never became Chinese. They didnt flee to Song China. They fled to Korea or stayed in Manchuria. They became Koreans, Jurchens, Manchurians etc etc. The Koreans of course do not claim the Jurchens and Manchurians. In fact only a tiny tiny tiny number actually fled to Song China(according to the stuff you brought up). I know what youre going to say next. That since Manchuria is now a part of China(actually it should be China being a part of Manchuria) that it makes Balhae a part of China. Well I have the perfect counter for that stupid comment.

Heres what Pankaj Mohan, an Indian Asian Studies teacher at the University of Sydney has to say about your logic-

“If today is the standard, then are you saying that the Buddha is a Nepalese because his birth place is now part of Nepal?” Winding up, he continued, “If China one day annexed Nepal, then would that mean that Buddha would become a Chinese? One’s history cannot change with borders.”

http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2470382
===






I already answered this stupid argument. In fact I answered it 10 freakin times already.If you knew how to read you would have known this. Im not going to repeat myself. Im just going to repost what I said earlier.
===
Further proof that you have no idea what youre talking about. Why dont you go read up on what China referred to as tributaries. Chinas definition of tributaries differs from the western meaning of tributaries. Being a tributary of China did not imply military defeat or colonization. It only referred to a country that acknowledged the existence of the Chinese emperor with a small gift. In doing so, the Chinese emperor would allow access to trade, technology, travel, peace and cultural amenities(Buddhism and Confucianism for example). China blocked off such exchange to the barbarians. Furthermore it wasnt a one way deal. It was a two way deal. China regularly payed tribute to its tributaries as well in a friendly gesture by both countries. It was a business transaction. Not some acknowledgment of military defeat or enslavement of a country. Want another example?

Over a century ago when the British wanted to open up trade with China, the Chinese emperor decreed that he would do so only if the crown of Great Britain agreed to become a tributary state. It had nothing to do with China defeating or enslaving Great Britain. China only spoke to countries that acknowledged the existence of the Chinese emperor. I will repeat, a tributary of China in no way implies colonization or military defeat as you somehow believe. Therefore your "Balhae being a tributary of China" is a stupid and ignorant comment that does not prove that it was somehow a part of China. Balhae acknowledged the emperor for its own personal gain. Not because China somehow defeated it(infact the Tang was never able to beat Balhae).

Hence the reason why Korea had its own rulers, language, culture and customs while the zillions of tiny countries that China actually conquered are now Chinese
===
China only bestowed the title king in NAME ONLY. You could still become a King in your own country though the CHinese emperor wouldnt recognize your status if you didnt recognize him. He would instead use a different title like Lord or some other equivalent. Is this concept so difficult to understand? Next time learn to fu-king read. And quit selectively ignoring the information you cannot counter.



Yes you did, you also supported such a notion. Quit back tracking now.



Distortion my @$$. Your entire argument is based on Koreans not being able to become Mohe. Otherwise it would annihilate your entire argument. The founder of Balhae and his son were Koguryo generals. The founder of Paekche was the third son of the founder of Koguryo. And so forth.

Your entire argument falls otherwise. Furthermore I can tell you've finally conceeded on the Koguryo debate. Afterall China only absorbed 30k out of 700k. Korea absorbed the rest. Then you have the fact that Korea had three seperate successor states to Koguryo, the name Korea comes from Koryo which in turn comes from Koguryo. The fact that ancients texts like the Samguk saki label Koguryo as a Korean kingdom and so forth.

What evidence does China have of Koguryo being Chinese?

That basically means you support the notion of Genghis Kahn being Chinese. Either Genghis is or isnt Chinese. The fact that you believe China has a claim is just a careful way for you to say that yes, he is indeed Chinese.





Koguryo had 700,000 families. China only absorbed 30,000. The 4000 for Shilla ONLY included Koguryo civillians who had to be moved into Shilla. The remaining population already lived in Shillas new territories or Balhae thus they didnt have to be registered.

This is the tenth time I had to educate you on this fact. Quit asking the same $hit over and over again.




Researchers? You mean government payed Chinese researchers who worked for the Northeastern project? Yeah compare that to the reesearch done by ALL NON CHINESE professors, historians, intellectuals and a few Chinese professors and universities who side with Korea.

Who do you think has the higher ground here? China where information and media is censored and controlled. Or the rest of the world where freedom rings and historians are free to say and research whatever they want? Its not Samsung who pays historians. Its the Chinese government who pays Chinese historians to make baseless claims. Wasnt that the entire purpose of the Northeast project which they spent the equivalent of millions of dollars on? Mind you that a dollar in China goes a lot further then in the wealthy west.




And you believe that 670,000 Koguryo families just vanished into the thin air.



How typical of you. And quit ignoring all the stuff I write or posting conspiracy theories. If you want me to take you more seriously and be more respectful then I suggest you post evidence for any of the trash you claim.



Is that why you ignore 95% of what I write and seem to be unable to find a counter argument for them. Thats the difference. A lie can easily be exposed as a lie with factual evidence. A fact on the other hand cannot be defeated with lies. Whos winning the argument right now?

Why is it that Im able to reply to and counter every single one of your arguments. While you ignore 95% of what I write? I happen to live in a country where freedom of press exists. You live in a country where professors can be jailed for disagreeing with the government.

Really now, you still think you have the higher ground?

Troll. Youre going to be banned soon so im not even going to bother replying to you.
==========


By your own logic. Mongolian history also belongs to Korea and any other country they conquered and ruled.

see, you doing it again. is it so hard to understand the article is saying? kroean government paying people to promote its agenda.



oh, evil asian dude, no reasonable person can understand your silly argument.



so you claiming because a few mohe moved to koryo, all mohe are korean. how many times do i have to tell you this is just plain silly? on the other hand, most mohe moved to china, balhea was the name given by china. it is a tributary state of china. by the way, china claim it is chinese history for chinese minority in dongbei or , not mainlstream chinese history? understand that?


i never denied mohe who moved to koryo became korean. but saying all mohe are korean is laughable.



oh, evil asian dude, you and your silly comparisons. historic record clearly stated that only a minority fled to korea. where is your evidence most fled to korea? so you claiming because a few mohe moved to koryo, all mohe are korean. therefore, balhae is korean. this is just plain silly.



balhae and gorguryo is chinese history because they were ancient dead kingdoms. they were chinese tributary states. most its people became chinese later on. so china is claiming it for those dongbei chinese minorities. what do korea have to claim them? not much obviously.



oh, you and your wild assumptions.

they were refugees for god sake. this is like saying "chinese and korean are blood relatives because when korea became a colony of japan korean people fled korea and the chinese welcomed them with open arms." see, this is how you make an comparison, unlike your silly unfitting comparisons.

lol no, because the claim isnt based on conquest but assimilation. ex. genghis khan did not assimilate, and i do not consider him chinese.

Kublai Khan took on Chinese customs, titles and bureaucracy. Towards the end of the dynasty, Yuan emperors were losing influence with the Mongols outside of China for adopting too many Chinese customs.

Kublai assimilated into Chinese customs, as all Chinese emperors did, regardless of ethnicity. Kublai even built his new capital in the same place as the "central capital" in the Jin dynasty which preceded Yuan as well.

If these non Han emperors wanted to have a separate identity, why would they follow traditional Chinese imperialistic customs and traditions?

you are basically saying that since america is led by obama now, the country is now strictly african or something else. not so, Obama knowingly assumed the leadership role of the political entity of America, as did all the Chinese emperors did for China.

Mid-Night_Sun watches TV, drinks coke, wears jeans and eats sandwich. If Mid-Night_Sun wanted to be Chinese, why would he follow traditional Western customs and traditions?

see, when you can't find any evidence your just result to making up stuff. it's clear that i didn't say that but somehow, according to you i said that, so it must be an undeniable fact that i said it. the same goes with your argument, they are merely empty made-up statement without any backup. but according to you, they are "hard evidence."


why don't you reply to him? because you can't. most he stated are facts that you can't refute.

midnightsun is chinese canadian...

the analogy SHOULD be, if midnightsun wanted to be non chinese, why did he choose to have his chinese name in his official name for documents. (which he did btw)


btw, i dont even think your analogy contradicted me :S

"If these non Han emperors wanted to have a separate identity, why would they follow traditional Chinese imperialistic customs and traditions?"

"If Mid-Night_Sun wanted to be Chinese, why would he follow traditional Western customs and traditions?"

aka "if yuan emperors wanted to be separate, why would they follow traditional chinese customs and traditions?"

lite, you're still at it? Even the government of CHina has backed off their claims of the Manchurian lands as Chinese. This claim has been supported by Russians, Japanese, English, american, Koreans, and a few Chinese scholar. Please go back to the rabbit hole where you came from. Because, you are only making things worse on this forum. Seriously, get a life.

So you dont have evidence? Just admit it. Youre a liar. Wheres the evidence? You cant argue with me forever without providing evidence to back up your claims.


Oh yeah and why did you again ignore 95% of what I wrote?



Other then the entire world and a few Chinese professors.



Did I say that? No. You were claiming that anyone whos Mohe cannot be Korean. Which is what the Dae Jo Young and Jung Sang comments were about.



Oh yeah and why did you again ignore 95% of what I wrote?



There are more Anglo-Saxons in America then there are in Great Britain. Does that make Great Britain a part of America? Retard logic on your part. Is Singapore a Chinese state just because its majority Chinese?

What if we use inverse logic on your diseased Chinese nationalist brain. When China invaded and colonized Tibet more than 40 years ago. The majority of the population was tibetan while the remainder were mostly Chinese soldiers. Does that mean Tibet was still its own state until the Chinese finally became the majority population several decades later? Make some fu-king sense please.

And why did you again ignore 95% of what I wrote?



The tributary argument again? Even though I shut you down on this already? Let me repost it then(sadly you'll ignore it again).
====
Further proof that you have no idea what youre talking about. Why dont you go read up on what China referred to as tributaries. Chinas definition of tributaries differs from the western meaning of tributaries. Being a tributary of China did not imply military defeat or colonization. It only referred to a country that acknowledged the existence of the Chinese emperor with a small gift. In doing so, the Chinese emperor would allow access to trade, technology, travel, peace and cultural amenities(Buddhism and Confucianism for example). China blocked off such exchange to the barbarians. Furthermore it wasnt a one way deal. It was a two way deal. China regularly payed tribute to its tributaries as well in a friendly gesture by both countries. It was a business transaction. Not some acknowledgment of military defeat or enslavement of a country. Want another example?

Over a century ago when the British wanted to open up trade with China, the Chinese emperor decreed that he would do so only if the crown of Great Britain agreed to become a tributary state. It had nothing to do with China defeating or enslaving Great Britain. China only spoke to countries that acknowledged the existence of the Chinese emperor. I will repeat, a tributary of China in no way implies colonization or military defeat as you somehow believe. Therefore your "Balhae being a tributary of China" is a stupid and ignorant comment that does not prove that it was somehow a part of China. Balhae acknowledged the emperor for its own personal gain. Not because China somehow defeated it(infact the Tang was never able to beat Balhae).

Hence the reason why Korea had its own rulers, language, culture and customs while the zillions of tiny countries that China actually conquered are now Chinese
====
What exactly makes you think that being a tributary somehow makes a country Chinese? Is Japan a part of China too? Cause they were also a tributary? Please answer my question. And why did you again ignore 95% of what I wrote? Quit ignoring the stuff you cant answer. Please answer my questions and provide evidence.



Yes you did. You denied Koreans the Mohe people. Your idiotic logic stated that anything Mohe cannot be Korean. Thats why you believe Balhae is somehow Chinese. Which is stupid. Furthermore there were Mohe states and tribes OTHER than Balhae. Claim them if you want, take your filthy hands off of Balhae though.

And why did you again ignore 95% of what I wrote?



Your own source states that a significant portion of the Balhae population fled to Koryo. The source that claims that 100,000 fled to Balhae DOES NOT GIVE OUT A NUMBER FOR THE NUMBER WHO FLED TO MANCHURIA AND ELSEWHERE. The source that states that 470,000 fled to Manchuria DOES NOT GIVE OUT A NUMBER FOR THOSE WHO FLED TO KORYO. The 470,000 source however does state that a significant portion fled to Koryo which could be another way of saying most fled to Balhae. On the other hand. How many of them fled to Song China? Virtually none. If population flow to song China was minimal then I guess it clearly shows that China had nothing to do with Balhae. If you think China has a claim to balhae because of Manchuria, youre sadly mistake. Otherwise you might as well claim every living organism in the world for China.



But thats besides the point. Ive already gone over this on my second post. The same post YOU CONVENIENTLY IGNORED. Let me repost it.
=====
First and foremost you lack a source. I scoured all over the internet looking for the 470,000 claim and the ONLY place I could find it was on a Chinese history forum made by a Chinese nationalist like yourself. What some guy says over an internet forum argument by no means proves anything. If you want to convince the people here, youre going to need a real source. Not someones opinion.

The Chinese guy in that forum also used an obscure book the Liao Shi for his numbers. The Liao Shi cannot be found much less bought in the west. Ive searched all over the internet for it as well as my local library and plan to go to my bookstore. I cant find it anywhere in the US or Europe. Not even amazon.com nor ebay has it. For all I know, he could be BSing everyone and making numbers up. One of the members of that site requested that Chinese guy provide credible links to backup his claims which he refused to bring up. More then likely you're simply parroting the 470,000 number as well. Prove to me that the 470,000 number is legitimate.

The 100,000 for Koryo and 470,000 for Manchuria(notice I didnt say China, ill explain later) also comes from 2 entirely different sources during 2 entirely different time periods. I would understand if they came from the same source but they dont. Numbers can vary widely in different sources. For example some past historians claimed that the 300 Spartans faced a Persian army of 2 million. While other sources claim the number to be around 20,000. What a big difference and goes to show how idiotic it is to use one source for Koryos numbers and an entirely different source for Manchurias. An ironic fact you should consider is that the same source that states the 470,000 number also states that "a significant portion" of the population fled to Koryo. THEY DO NOT GIVE NUMBERS FOR THE KORYO MIGRATION. They only state that the migration was very large. Which could be another way of saying Koryo absorbed most of the population. Too bad you're just parroting the biased selective information of 2 entirely different sources by some idiot on the internet.

And how exactly can you assess the validity of the 470,000 number? What accurate methods did the people back then use to obtain the numbers 470,000 and 100,000 people who fled? How could they accurately measure such a chaotic event. Unlike the 30,000 Koguryo citizens who were registered and taken to China. How exactly did they accurately estimate 470,000 Balhe citizens randomly fleeing to different places? Thats physically impossible. None of them were registered or made their prescence known. The migrations occured instanteously. It was sporadic, chaotic, unpredictable, random and took course over a long period of time. Its impossible to accurate guess back then as it is today with accuracy. The number is nothing more then a guess.

To make matters worse, the Liao Shi was compiled by a single person who lived 416 years after Balhae fell. Its hard enough to estimate the number of people fleeing Balhae in random directions all at once. How exactly did single guy 700 years ago get the number 460,000 for an event that happened 416 years before his time? Its preposterous. And did the Liao Shi really make the 460,000 claim or are you parroting what that guy over the internet said?

Another factor you fail to mention is that those Balhae people didnt flee to Song China. They fled to mostly Manchuria which wasnt a part of China back then. It wouldnt be a part of China until about 1000 years later. Over the centuries the Balhae people who fled to Manchuria lost their identity and became different nationalities. Much like how white Americans today no longer consider themselves British, French germans etc. Thus your china claim is invalid because they never became Chinese. They didnt flee to Song China. They fled to Korea or stayed in Manchuria. They became Koreans, Jurchens, Manchurians etc etc. The Koreans of course do not claim the Jurchens and Manchurians. In fact only a tiny tiny tiny number actually fled to Song China(according to the stuff you brought up). I know what youre going to say next. That since Manchuria is now a part of China(actually it should be China being a part of Manchuria) that it makes Balhae a part of China. Well I have the perfect counter for that stupid comment.

Heres what Pankaj Mohan, an Indian Asian Studies teacher at the University of Sydney has to say about your logic-

“If today is the standard, then are you saying that the Buddha is a Nepalese because his birth place is now part of Nepal?” Winding up, he continued, “If China one day annexed Nepal, then would that mean that Buddha would become a Chinese? One’s history cannot change with borders.”

http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2470382
===
And why did you again ignore 95% of what I wrote?



You just shot yourself in the foot genius. If they were refugees in Korea. Then what does that make them in Manchuria? ALSO REFUGEES. My god you're a fool. And why did you again ignore 95% of what I wrote?



Im not going to reply to him because hes already probably banned and only has 5 posts. Theres a troll roaming K-chat who gets banned multiple times each day. He only gets up to 10 posts before being banned. If you think his points are legitimate then why dont you add them to your argument?

You've lost lite. You cannot prove any of your assertions and ignore everything I write. You have to resort to baseless accusations such as anyone who supports Korea on this issue being secretly bribed by Samsung(of which I requested evidence for).

You only continue to argue for the sake of arguing. Because your wounded Chinese pride cannot accept defeat. Grow up.

WTF??

LOL

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

THIS IS THE GREATEST THREAD IN THE HISTORY OF AF!!!!!!!!




PS: Your pictures are so hilarious they bring tears to my eyes!! HAHAHA

PS2: I missed you man. Don't ever MIA from this forum again.

PS3: I think we should make some edits to the WIKI article with your pictures dude... they illustrate the Koguryo issue beyond belief. Something blind Chinese trolls might understand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goguryeo

Calling people troll is pretty much the common cheap shot used by korean members who can't answer questions or try to avoid questions. But it's not going to change the fact that Koryeo did not believe Parhae (Bohai) was Korean. If they did, they would have compiled a few volumes of records about Parhae in "Samguk Sagi". That was a very valid question and loser like your of course will try to avoid the very obvious.

As for the rest of questions and facts in this post, I doubt you can argue about it because your knowledge level regarding the topic is tooooo lacking....First, I suggest you go read your own Korean record such as Samguk Sagi from the first page to the bottom page like I did no less than 3 times. Then do more reading on other primary sources....Then come back to argue.....Post opinions from bunch of Korean financially supported scholars are not going to be able to convince no one.

i gave evidence but you just wouldn't see it even it jumps up an bite you.


Koreans answered with the array of projects aimed at presenting Koguryo as a glorious and inseparable part of Korean history and appropriating it once and for all. A special foundation was created to disseminate money among those domestic and foreign scholars who would promote "historically correct" views of the ancient kingdom (it is needless to say which views should be seen as "historically correct"). A number of television history dramas were shot to bring the heroes of Koguryo into every Korean's living room. The Chinese retaliated by preventing the Seoul producers from shooting these serials in China, thus depriving them of cheap sets and props.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/HI16Dg01.html






"so the entire world support korea on this issue? what is your evidence? give me a research paper that says so and sign by every single researchers of the world." couldn't do it huh, then you have no evidence!" see how childish that sound? that was you.





as usual, you just making things up again. quote where i said that? i stated those mohe fled to koryo became korean. but Dae Jo Yong definite not kroean. he was a resident of korguryo with mohe blood. korguyo is not korean.




i didn't ignore, i just think your empty statements without any back up from primary sources is unworthy of reply.




that was the exact silly logic you are using, because a few mohe form balhea moved to koryo, so all of them must be kroean! balhea must be a korean kingdom. that is just ridiculous.



oh the hypocricy in your stupid logic. that was exactly you are using to justify that korguyo was a korean kingdom even though it has really nothing to do with koreans. korguyo was a former tributary states of china. after the downfall most its people merged with chinese population and became chinese. i don't see why we can't include it in china history of ancient dongbei chinese minorities. on the other hand, the korean claim is rather fatuous. they claim it is korean kingdom based on no evidence whatsoever. korguyo was your enemy, not you. you are silla.





i already told you that the tributary system signifies economic dependece and political dependence.
japan was a tributary state of china for a while. the japanese king Ashikaga Yoshimitsu was given the title "The King of Japan" by China and was presented a "The King of Japan" seal, which he accepted. the japanese king Wanting to improve relations with China and to rid Japan of the wokou threat, Yoshimitsu accepted a relationship with the Chinese that was to last for half a century. In 1401 he restarted the tribute system, describing himself in a letter to the Chinese Emperor as "Your subject, the King of Japan".



this is another royal seal discovered in japan, saying "king of japan of Han dynasty"




quote me where i said that? or you just make up stuff again





read that again. 100,000 fleed to koryo, 100,000 stayed, 470,000 moved to china including machuria. get it? this is from ancient record, not the empty made-up statements you love to make.




why don't you just burn all your record and start making up history if you don't believe historic record? what is your evidence that most fled to koryo? nothing, just your wild claims as usual.

so much for the cartoons...

All we need EAD to do is answer one very simple question to see his credibility...

Why Koryeo include Gaogouli in Korea's first history book "Samguk Sagi", but did not include Bohai into the same book?

.... I suspect someone is coming down with fever and not show up for class today

Me think the same...............

Why bother? These people are hopeless. Just focus on the ones that count, those outside the Wall.

EAD, in other words, all your efforts are futile. It's the irreconciliable sociocultural impasse. Accept it.

Yap.....There is indeed a wall between Korea and China. That's DMZ.....

Samhan culture polity in today's SK was outside of Chinese sphere, which formed today's Hanguk.

Fuyu culture polity in today's NK and Southern Manchuria has always been a Chinese regional regime, which formed today's Chosun.

Two have been very different from the beginning of time with irreconciliable sociocultural impasse. Accept it.

^ ..............................

Accept that China has no political influence in NK

China is the western lap dog.

And pathetic Chinese.

Stop stealing Koguryeo history with no proofs or evidences.

It makes you look ridiculous, because you are accusing Koreans stealing your history. (Hwandan Gogi, etc.)

China doesn't have to steal Gaogouli History. Chinese people were the only people in the world who recorded Gaogouli History from its birth to its death. What did Koreans do with Gaogouli? Nothing, nada, zip......except copied Gaogouli materials from Chinese records and fabricated craps....


As for Hwandan Gogi being a credible source of info, you might as well go read the Lord of the Ring.

Thank you for keeping records of Koguryeo being Korean.

I am watching this thread. All trolls have been banned. Keep it clean or you will be disciplined.

What evidence? Wheres the evidence that everyone who sides with Korea is secretly being funded by Samsung?






That "special Koguryo foundation" was made to directly counter Chinas Northeastern project genius.The same Northeast project that claims that Genghis Kahn was Chinese. Even before that foundation was created, all non-Chinese professors labeled it a Korean kingdom. Heck Chinas offical position before 2002 was that it was a Korean kingdom. Why did they suddenlly change their minds? What do you have to say about that? Its all Chinas fault. They shouldnt have started the Northeast project. You just shot yourself in the foot for bringing it up. Heres what I think of your Genghis Kahn and Goguryeo theft.





In other words-





You did ignore it. Thats why you have to repeat the same questions again and again. Thats also why your replies are short and never answer any of my questions or arguments. You intentionally avoid it because you lack an intelligent reply.



Yes, its Korean. Korean because it was founded and ruled by a Korean. Korean because that kingdom regarded itself as a Korean. Korean because they considered themselves to be Koguryo- the children of Buyeo: a Korean kingdom. They also fled to mostly Korea and Manchuria. Not song China.

China did not absorb the Balhae people. They absorbed Manchuria but not Balhae. Your argument has just been shot down for the 20th time.



Balhae and Koguryo =/= Manchuria.



You still think Koguryo is Chinese? Read this picture and weep.

Korean evidence.



Chinese evidence


Lite's entire argument on why Koguryo and Balhae belong to China




AGAIN AND AGAIN YOU IGNORE 95% OF THE STUFF I WROTE.

I ALREADY REPLIED TO THIS SAME TRASH ARGUMENT YOU MADE ABOUT TRIBUTARIES. QUIT IGNORING EVERY COMMENT YOU CANNOT COUNTER. Just admit that youre wrong and shut the hell up.

Im not going to repeat myself or write another drawn out lecture to educate your feeble mind. Heres what I said earlier-

Further proof that you have no idea what youre talking about. Why dont you go read up on what China referred to as tributaries. Chinas definition of tributaries differs from the western meaning of tributaries. Being a tributary of China did not imply military defeat or colonization. It only referred to a country that acknowledged the existence of the Chinese emperor with a small gift. In doing so, the Chinese emperor would allow access to trade, technology, travel, peace and cultural amenities(Buddhism and Confucianism for example). China blocked off such exchange to the barbarians. Furthermore it wasnt a one way deal. It was a two way deal. China regularly payed tribute to its tributaries as well in a friendly gesture by both countries. It was a business transaction. Not some acknowledgment of military defeat or enslavement of a country. Want another example?

Over a century ago when the British wanted to open up trade with China, the Chinese emperor decreed that he would do so only if the crown of Great Britain agreed to become a tributary state. It had nothing to do with China defeating or enslaving Great Britain. China only spoke to countries that acknowledged the existence of the Chinese emperor. I will repeat, a tributary of China in no way implies colonization or military defeat as you somehow believe. Therefore your "Balhae being a tributary of China" is a stupid and ignorant comment that does not prove that it was somehow a part of China. Balhae acknowledged the emperor for its own personal gain. Not because China somehow defeated it(infact the Tang was never able to beat Balhae).

Hence the reason why Korea had its own rulers, language, culture and customs while the zillions of tiny countries that China actually conquered are now Chinese

Fact: China's definition of tributary =/= the western definition of tributary.
Fact: Chinas emperor payed tribute to their tributaries as well.
Fact: China's tributary system was a two way deal. It in no way implied military conquest or enslavement.
Fact: Koguryo rarely payed tribute to China. For most of its existence, it didn't pay tribute.
Fact: Countries only paid tribute for their own benefit. Things like trade, culture or alliances against barbarians etc.
Fact: Several other asian nations like Japan payed tribute in the past. Why arn't you claiming Japan as a part of China? Why apply this logic to Koguryo and Balhae only? Why not apply it to every single one of your neighbors? Talk about biased selectivity.



In other words, you have no evidence.

So Koguryo was more powerful than little Chinese states at the time.

So what.

We are better at stealing history than anyone else.

And we thank the Hmong for inventing our Chinese language.

Real Chinese can say this with no shame.

It is a chinese saying " to have character, is to say the truth"

i think someone killed the chiense guy who said that.

EAD quit trolling with your stupid and offensive cartoons.