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SantaKlaws
QUOTE
[세계의 눈/기 소르망]한국은 아시아 가치동맹의 축

한국과 미국, 프랑스와 미국 간의 관계는 단순하지 않다. 두 나라 모두 미국에 의해 해방됐지만 두 나라 모두 강력한 반미 감정이 존재하고, 국가 정체성이 문화의 미국화에 의해 사라질 수 있다는 우려가 있다.

그러나 심각한 위협이 존재할 경우 전면에 부각되는 것은 미국과의 동맹이다. 현 프랑스 정부는 이슬람 테러리즘과 이란 핵무장이 제기하는 현실적 위험에 직면해 반미적 수사를 버렸다. 한국에서는 북한 정권의 예측 불가능성이 증가함에 따라 이명박 정부와 다수 여론이 평양-베이징 축에 대항해 서울-워싱턴의 확고한 동맹만이 이 지역의 평화를 유지할 수 있다는 쪽으로 움직였다.

절박한 상황 변화를 넘어 한미관계의 본질에서 중요한 진화가 일어났다. 이는 미-프랑스 관계의 진화에 비견할 수 있는 것이다. 한미 두 나라에 걸린 것은 더는 물질적 경제적 군사적 공동이해만이 아니다. 지난달 한국의 이명박 대통령과 버락 오바마 미국 대통령은 워싱턴 정상회담에서 ‘공동의 가치’ 방어를 언급했다.

이 공동의 가치는 무엇인가. 소련이 몰락하기 전 한미는 공동의 가치보다는 공산주의라는 공동의 적을 가졌다. 공산주의는 이제 정당성이 없지만 세계는 여전히 두 가지 다른 원칙에 의해 조직된다. 미국 유럽 한국 등에서는 국가가 개인의 행복과 선택의 자유에 봉사한다. 다른 한편에서는 국가는 개인의 행복보다 국력의 증대에 봉사한다. 가치라는 점에서 한국은 미국과 유럽의 편에 서 있고 북한이나 중국은 다른 편에 서 있다. 중국에서 공산당의 경제발전 전략은 우선 당을 위한 것이고 가난한 농부들은 그 다음이다. 이런 점에서 북한과 중국은 닮았다.

많은 한국인은 남북한의 문화적 동질성이 정치적 분단보다 더 강력하다고 생각하면서 내 분석에 동의하지 않을 수도 있다. 또 중국을 존중할 가치가 있는 문화적 원조(元祖) 국가라고 여기는 사람도 있다. 그러나 현실을 보자. 오늘날 중국과 북한에서 고유문화는 공산당에 의해 파괴된 지 오래다. 한미 동맹은 한국의 물적 이해와 독립만을 보존하는 것이 아니다. 한국이 그 문화를 지킨 것도 상당부분 한미동맹 덕분이다. 일부 한국인이 우려하는 문화의 미국화는 공산주의 독재가 제기하는 위협에 비하면 아무것도 아니다. 한반도의 남북을 모두 방문해본 나로서는 진정한 한국 문화가 남쪽에 있다는 생각에 추호의 의심도 없다. 창조적 예술가들에 의한 한국 문화의 현대 세계 속으로의 편입은 남쪽에서 일어나고 있다. 북쪽에서 창조된 것은 별로 없다.

가치 동맹이란 점에서 떠올리고 싶은 나라가 하나 더 있다. 일본이다. 자유민주주의, 인권 존중, 법치주의라는 공동의 가치에 기초한 아시아의 동맹은 일본을 포함해야 한다. 프랑스와 독일이 천 년간의 갈등 끝에 화해에 이르렀는데 일본과 한국이 화해하지 못할 이유가 없다. 양국은 대중문화(TV 시트콤, 스포츠, 패션, 가요) 교류를 통해 이미 가까워졌지만 새 시대를 열기 위해 디뎌야 할 상징적 발걸음이 남아 있다. 이 점에서 이 대통령과 일왕의 상상력 발휘가 요구된다.

아시아의 견고한 가치 동맹은 베이징과 평양의 집권세력을 굴복시킬 수도 있다. 서울이 포용력 있는 외교적 이니셔티브를 취해야 할 시간이 무르익었다. 중국 정부는 겉보기와는 달리 튼튼하지 못한 경제구조에서 오는 위기와 농민 반란으로 쉽게 무너질 수 있다. 일본은 더는 안정적 정부를 갖지 못한다. 대만은 분열돼 있다. 한국만이 정당성이 있는 정치제도와 명확한 이념을 가진 정부를 갖고 있다.


http://news.donga.com/fbin/output?n=200907070104

This is a column from Guy Sorman, a French philosopher, about the ROK-US alliance that I found insightful.

According to him, both South Korea and France share one thing in common. Both are allies of the US, but harbors significant level of anti-American sentiments. However, anti-American sentiments became marginalized in both countries with the emergence of new threats. In case of Korea, the emergent threat is China.

He goes to argue that ROK-US alliance is turning to an alliance driven by mutual values, more so than interests. Values such as liberal decmoracy, human rights and rule of law. In this regard, South Korea shares same values as America and Europe, while unfortunatley, our brothers in North Korea shares same values as China. If South Korea embraces old enemies, Japan, like France embraced Germany, South Korea can take the leading role in a value-driven Asian alliance that can defeat China and North Korea, freeing North Koreans from their misery.

IMO, embracing Japan is a contentious idea, even though we are indrectly allied through our mutual defense pacts with the US. Nonetheless, an Asian alliance against China can work much to our benefit. Most importantly, it would be easier and more likely to free North Korea from Chinese political influence. And Asian countries can muster proper defense against China, the emerging threat against peace and prosperity of eastern Asia. It will be a better future for all.

Please share your thoughts on this idea of a value-driven Asian alliance.
Chan-Ho
Yes, North Korea is a fine example of why China is the greatest threat to regional and global stability. Unless the North Korean issue is resolved and Chinese imperialistic ambitions in North-East Asia are set aside for true co-operation, Korea should seek to strengthen its ties with other countries and ethnicities who are also under threat by what is clearly Chinese imperialistic policies and its unilateral pursuit of hegemony at the expense of the interests of the global community.
BurdenOfAges
QUOTE (Chan-Ho @ Jul 18 2009, 09:08 PM) *
Yes, North Korea is a fine example of why China is the greatest threat to regional and global stability. Unless the North Korean issue is resolved and Chinese imperialistic ambitions in North-East Asia are set aside for true co-operation, Korea should seek to strengthen its ties with other countries and ethnicities who are also under threat by what is clearly Chinese imperialistic policies and its unilateral pursuit of hegemony at the expense of the interests of the global community.


Two false assumptions:

1. That heightening tensions with China will improve regional and global stability.

2. That there is such a thing as a global community.
antimatter
I think east asian countries are practical and much more economical driven than the ideology of democratc value driven.
If it's the case like you describef, SK 's government would be much more vocal against China. But it's not.

Sk 's government realize economic plays a much big factor in its foreign policy. It has much more weight than the ideology values you described.

If your opinion represents majority of the korean, but I still yet to see SK government openly challenge or confront China in that respect. I don't know, maybe it coming in the future . As of now, Alot of what you described is just alot of noises in the circulation but yet to be offcially adopted.


SantaKlaws
QUOTE
Both nations share a commitment to fundamental values including open societies, democracy, and free markets. The U.S.- Republic of Korea Mutual Defense Treaty remains the cornerstone of the U.S.-South Korea security relationship -- a relationship that has guaranteed peace and stability on the Korean Peninsula and in Northeast Asia for over 50 years. In order to adapt to changing security needs, South Korea will take the lead role in the combined defense of its country, supported by the presence of U.S. military forces on the peninsula, in the region, and beyond.


http://www.voanews.com/uspolicy/2009-06-23-voa2.cfm

biggthumpup.gif
joolee
QUOTE (antimatter @ Jul 18 2009, 09:18 PM) *
I think east asian countries are practical and much more economical driven than the ideology of democratc value driven.
If it's the case like you describef, SK 's government would be much more vocal against China. But it's not.

Sk 's government realize economic plays a much big factor in its foreign policy. It has much more weight than the ideology values you described.

If your opinion represents majority of the korean, but I still yet to see SK government openly challenge or confront China in that respect. I don't know, maybe it coming in the future . As of now, Alot of what you described is just alot of noises in the circulation but yet to be offcially adopted.


It's unfortunate, but I have to agree with this assessment. SK is more interested in economics, rather than human rights and geopolitical threats. It is very unfortunate.
Chan-Ho
QUOTE (joolee @ Jul 18 2009, 06:31 PM) *
It's unfortunate, but I have to agree with this assessment. SK is more interested in economics, rather than human rights and geopolitical threats. It is very unfortunate.


Sure, South Korea can still pursue economic co-operation, but at the same time needs to protect its political interests by actively seeking out alliances with those who share common interests. The North Korean issue is a clear cut indicator that Koreans share interests with those who are also threatened by Chinese imperialism.
SantaKlaws
QUOTE (joolee @ Jul 19 2009, 10:31 AM) *
It's unfortunate, but I have to agree with this assessment. SK is more interested in economics, rather than human rights and geopolitical threats. It is very unfortunate.


South Korean military acquisitions and policy on military pacts are in disagreement with your view. You'll see strengthening ROK-US alliance, and improving military relations with other countries, including Japan.
joolee
QUOTE (Chan-Ho @ Jul 18 2009, 09:35 PM) *
Sure, South Korea can still pursue economic co-operation, but at the same time needs to protect its political interests by actively seeking out alliances with those who share common interests. The North Korean issue is a clear cut indicator that Koreans share interests with those who are also threatened by Chinese imperialism.


It seems to be lip service to me. Consider these:

1) South Korea will not let Dalai Lama to enter SK for a visit, because that would offend China.
2) South Korea will not prosecute Chinese pirates that murdered and wounded Korean coast guards, afraid that China will retaliate. In fact, Chinese can indiscriminately and illegally fish in SK waters without fear of repercussion.
3) South Korea did not prosecute (except a slap on the wrist), those Chinese rioters who violently attacked peaceful protesters in Seoul during the Beijing Olympic Torch Relay.
4) South Korea will not say a peep to protest Beijing's treatment of North Korean refugees.

Unless SK learns to stand up and be counted for a change, it will continue to bend over, only to be kicked in the butt.
Chan-Ho
QUOTE (joolee @ Jul 18 2009, 06:44 PM) *
It seems to be lip service to me. Consider these:

1) South Korea will not let Dalai Lama to enter SK for a visit, because that would offend China.
2) South Korea will not prosecute Chinese pirates that murdered and wounded Korean coast guards, afraid that China will retaliate. In fact, Chinese can indiscriminately and illegally fish in SK waters without fear of repercussion.
3) South Korea did not prosecute (except a slap on the wrist), those Chinese rioters who violently attacked peaceful protesters in Seoul during the Beijing Olympic Torch Relay.
4) South Korea will not say a peep to protest Beijing's treatment of North Korean refugees.

Unless SK learns to stand up and be counted for a change, it will continue to bend over, only to be kicked in the butt.



Sure, it is S. Korea's economic interests to partake in these superficial policies, but behind the scenes, I believe Korea is and should be looking to balance out Chinese imperialistic policies by seeking out an Asian "NATO" so to speak that will greatly protect global interests against Chinese pursuit of hegemony.
SkyLegenD
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Chan-Ho
QUOTE (SkyLegenD @ Jul 18 2009, 07:02 PM) *
Flaming
transunion
banned
joolee
QUOTE (SkyLegenD @ Jul 18 2009, 10:02 PM) *
Flaming
KeepinItReal
I agree that the S.Korea should maintain a stronger relationship with USA and Europe right now due to the increasing threat of China. The problem is that S.Korea's biggest exporting partner is China right now and it would be risky to wreck that relationship simply because of economical reasons. But in the broad picture, it would be in Korea's best interest to not be so pro-China and even pro-Japan and rather maintain a strong relationship with the USA and Europe, instead.

Here's an older article that shows Korea must maintain strong relationships with USA and Europe rather than being pro-China/Japan

QUOTE
[김대중 칼럼] '5000년' vs. '60년'
대한민국의 자존과 성장은 동북아 넘어 세계로 나간 덕
'우리 민족끼리'의 자폐성은 '中·日의 굴레'를 불러올 것
김대중·고문
http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/...8081000942.html
대한민국이 탄생한 60년 전까지만 해도 우리에게는 주권재민(主權在民)의 개념조차 없었다. 그런 나라가 '촛불시위'에서 보았듯이 이제 국민 개개인이 주권자인양 헌법1조를 내세우는 '과잉주권' 세상으로까지 급성장했다. 실로 엄청난 변화다. 다른 나라들이 수세기에 걸쳐 걸었던 과정을 뛰어넘어 우리는 60여 년 만에 "봉건체제의 한 부속물에 불과한 신민(臣民)에서 벗어나 사회적 능력을 배양하여 자기 운명을 스스로 결정하고, 주권적 주체로서 결정을 내리는 근대적 개념의 국민으로 새롭게 태어난" 것이다. (김영호 편 '건국 60년의 재인식')

무엇이 이것을 가능케 했을까? 여러 학자들이 다양한 의견을 제시하고 있지만 우리의 발전과정을 축약하면, 우리가 중국과 일본의 굴레를 벗어나 미국을 매개로 민주주의를 배우고 세계로 나갈 수 있었기 때문임을 부인할 수 없다. 우리는 5000년의 역사를 자랑하지만 그 긴 세월의 대부분 우리 민족의 머리를 짓누른 것은 중국이었고, 근대에 와서 우리를 말살의 위기로까지 몰아간 것은 일본이었다. 우리 민족은 그들을 한번도 괴롭힌 적이 없는데 그들은 우리를 수천년 동안 괴롭혔다. 우리 민족에게 한(恨)과 원(怨)이 있다면 그것은 중국과 일본에 대한 것이다.

대한민국 건국 이후 지난 60년간 우리는 중국과 일본 굴레에서 벗어나 저들과 대등하게 경쟁할 만큼 성장했다. 우리 민족이 5000년의 역사에서 비로소 인간다운 삶을 영위하게 된 것도 지난 60년의 세월이었다. 그 '60년'은 그 실질적 가치 면에서 감히 지난 '5000년'을 넘보고 있는 것이다.

그런 나라, 그런 동북아에 복고(復古)의 기운이 번지고 있다. 지난 60년을 되돌려 이 나라를 동북아에 다시 끼워 넣으려는 반동(反動)의 징후들이 보인다. 김대중 정권 이래 '우리 민족끼리', 노무현 정권의 '동북아 균형자' 그리고 좌파세력의 '반미(反美)'가 그것을 충동해 왔다. 그것을 틈타 일본이 독도를 자기 땅이라고 들고 나오고, 중국이 '동북공정' 등을 통해 동아시아의 옛 '주인'임을 자처하고 있음을 본다. 경제력을 바탕으로 한 일본과 중국의 아시아 패권놀음이 다시 시작되고 있는 것이다. 일본이 아무리 경제대국으로 성장했어도 한국에 관한 한, '식민의 추억'을 잊을 리 없고, 중국은 경제력의 성장과 함께 한국에 대한 '종주(宗主)의 향수'에서 벗어나지 못하는 것 같다. 그 사이에 낀 한반도의 남과 북은 자해적(自害的)으로 가고 있는 양상이다.

동아시아는 왜 유럽처럼 연합(EU)할 수 없을까라는 의문이 꽤 오랫동안 있었다. 그러나 동북아는 유럽연합처럼 갈 수가 없다. 유럽은 두 차례의 대전을 포함, 수백 년간 전쟁을 치렀으면서도 과거의 반성 위에 손을 잡았다. 경제력 국력 면에서 비등한 데다가 서로를 병탄한 역사가 없기 때문이었다. 그래서 유럽의 나라들은 소모적 대립보다는 연합을 통한 세계화의 경쟁을 택했다. 그러나 중국과 일본은 '연합'할 수 없다. 원하지도 않는다. 그것이 아시아와 유럽의 차이인지도 모른다. 한국이 저들과 대등한 국력을 확보하지 못하는 한, 저들의 먹잇감이 될 수 있을 뿐 '균형자'로 인정받지 못한다. 그것은 5000년의 역사가 이미 내린 결론이다.

결국 대한민국이 선택할 진로는 지난 60년의 연장선상에서 찾을 수밖에 없다. 한마디로 중국과 일본 사이에 머물거나 되돌아오지 말고 과감히 밖으로, 세계로 나가야 한다. 중국과 일본은 한반도에 대해 '영토적 야욕'을 가졌던 나라다. 비록 시대가 바뀌었다고는 하지만 저들이 영토적 욕심을 버렸다는 징후는 없다. 오히려 그 반대다. 그러나 미국은 적어도 우리에게 영토적 야욕을 가진 나라는 아니다. 미국과 거래해서 손해를 보고 안 보고는 우리 하기에 달렸다.

지금 우리는 60년간의 압축성장에 따른 여러 가지 부작용에 시달리고 있다. 리더십의 깊이가 얕고 빈·부, 좌·우의 대립이 심각하며 세계화에 걸맞은 훈련이 미숙한 점 등 여러 갈등요소가 우리를 짓누르고 있다. 그렇기 때문에라도 우리는 여기서 멈출 수 없고 되돌아갈 수 없다. 우리가 멈추면 우리는 다른 나라에 곧 추월당할 것이며, 되돌아가면 중국과 일본의 패권주의가 기다리고 있을 뿐이다. 건국 60년의 가르침은 우리가 선택했던 길이 옳았으며 그 길 이외에는 다른 길이 있지도 않다는 것이다.
입력 : 2008.08.10 22:22 / 수정 : 2008.08.10 22:22
joolee
QUOTE
S.Korea's biggest exporting partner is China right now


If you look at the statistics, yeah, it looks impressive.

But look underneath the stats, what do you see? Seventy five to eighty percent of South Korean exports to China are reassembled and repackaged by Korean companies in China, then the container boxes are slapped with "Made In China" and re-exported out of China, to abroad to the US and EU.
chiuchimu
A Korean - Japan Military alliance sounds like a good idea, but would not work out.

Both Korea and Japan rank near the top ten in world military power. The other Asian nations lag far behind. The benefit is one way. An alliance to work has to be beneficial to all parties involved.

The two main military of Korea and japan can benefit by an alliance, but there is too much mistrusted between the people and the Governments. No agreement on the terms of alliance will ever be reached.

Its better to keep the binding element, The U.S.A. as organizer. and ask U.S.A. for closer coordination between Korean and Japanese forces. This should be carried out in 'war games' so that both are familiar with working with each other before a real event occurs.

BTW. I think for the bad air between the countries to clear, some where down the road, Korean and Japanese forces will have to fight side by side in working partnership against a common foe. then, the two countries will be at peace again.



mkfk1
Sk need Chinese export market.

France need Russia gas and oil.

Other then talks on forum like these, I dont see SK government can do anything other then talk. Same thing goes to France.

But just for fun, imagine what will happen to your economy if SK do succeed in making an "anti-chinese" alliances with Japan.

KeepinItReal
I don't think if Korea decides to go anti-China, China will react by not buying Korean goods. Why do you think Chinese consumers buy Korean goods? Simple answer, it's because they demand for Korean goods. Even if the Chinese gov 't does decides to put trading bans on Korea and prevents or limits Chinese consumers from buying Korean goods, the flow of goods will still persist in some indirect way. Also, I honestly do not believe that a sudden drop in Chinese exports in Korea will lead to the collapse of Korea's economy, it might lead to a temporary recession but probably not a huge economical meltdown that will collapse S.Korea lol. I believe China makes up 18-23% of Korea's exports?? S.Korea is still in strong hands with the other 80% of trading partners, which would likely to prevent a huge economic downturn on S.Korea if China does stop tradin with Korea.

Also, I really see India being the new China for S.Korea, possibly in the near future. There's potential for a huge market in India.
orange peel
^ sure, 15-20% might not be a huge hit, but why take it if you don't have to, what's the benifit to making another NATO targeting china bring out another cold war.

------------------------------------------

why's there so many every body team up against china proposals.. what'd we ever do to you

north korea, it's it's own country so china can only influence it, and to what extent no one really knows; china's just maintaining the status quo, it even joined the new UN resolution for sanctions against NK, china always follows UN resolutions in it's international policy.

please don't bring up xinjiang, xizang, taiwan.. etc.. those claims were made since the founding of the PRC and can't constitute evidence for imperialism or hegemony.. we didn't make any new claims on territories

i guess we made a few new claims on rocks that nobody's ever really noticed before and are all claiming now.

anyways, everybody's got economic interests with china, i don't think anybody would want to actively antagonize china since china's not really going out of it's way being hostile or militarily agressive with anybody.

---------------------------------------

QUOTE (chiuchimu @ Jul 18 2009, 10:52 PM) *
BTW. I think for the bad air between the countries to clear, some where down the road, Korean and Japanese forces will have to fight side by side in working partnership against a common foe. then, the two countries will be at peace again.


i hope you don't mean china by "common foe"
SantaKlaws
QUOTE (joolee @ Jul 19 2009, 10:44 AM) *
It seems to be lip service to me. Consider these:

1) South Korea will not let Dalai Lama to enter SK for a visit, because that would offend China.
2) South Korea will not prosecute Chinese pirates that murdered and wounded Korean coast guards, afraid that China will retaliate. In fact, Chinese can indiscriminately and illegally fish in SK waters without fear of repercussion.
3) South Korea did not prosecute (except a slap on the wrist), those Chinese rioters who violently attacked peaceful protesters in Seoul during the Beijing Olympic Torch Relay.
4) South Korea will not say a peep to protest Beijing's treatment of North Korean refugees.

Unless SK learns to stand up and be counted for a change, it will continue to bend over, only to be kicked in the butt.


I believe SK has been compromising in dealing with China, but not to the point of bending over or getting kicked in the butt. This is precisely why we need to build up a multilateral alliance to counter China's emergence.


QUOTE (Chan-Ho @ Jul 19 2009, 10:55 AM) *
Sure, it is S. Korea's economic interests to partake in these superficial policies, but behind the scenes, I believe Korea is and should be looking to balance out Chinese imperialistic policies by seeking out an Asian "NATO" so to speak that will greatly protect global interests against Chinese pursuit of hegemony.


You're right. Strengthening the ROK-US alliance is an important step in that process.


QUOTE (joolee @ Jul 19 2009, 11:47 AM) *
If you look at the statistics, yeah, it looks impressive.

But look underneath the stats, what do you see? Seventy five to eighty percent of South Korean exports to China are reassembled and repackaged by Korean companies in China, then the container boxes are slapped with "Made In China" and re-exported out of China, to abroad to the US and EU.


Correct. Multiple studies have found that most Korean exports to China are closely related to Korean investments there, meaning they are mostly components destined for Korean factories where they are assembled into final products for exports to developed economies.


QUOTE (chiuchimu @ Jul 19 2009, 11:52 AM) *
A Korean - Japan Military alliance sounds like a good idea, but would not work out.

Both Korea and Japan rank near the top ten in world military power. The other Asian nations lag far behind. The benefit is one way. An alliance to work has to be beneficial to all parties involved.

The two main military of Korea and japan can benefit by an alliance, but there is too much mistrusted between the people and the Governments. No agreement on the terms of alliance will ever be reached.

Its better to keep the binding element, The U.S.A. as organizer. and ask U.S.A. for closer coordination between Korean and Japanese forces. This should be carried out in 'war games' so that both are familiar with working with each other before a real event occurs.

BTW. I think for the bad air between the countries to clear, some where down the road, Korean and Japanese forces will have to fight side by side in working partnership against a common foe. then, the two countries will be at peace again.


You're right. Korea and Japan are already indirectly allied through the United States, but for a direct alliance there is much work to be done. I believe both sides have their own share of burden for reconciliation. On the other hand, I don't see any possible reconciliation with China if we consider the continued colonial occupation of Tibet and East Turkestan, and what it has done to North Korea, Myanmar, Sudan and Zimbabwe in sheer greed.



QUOTE (KeepinItReal @ Jul 19 2009, 11:43 AM) *
I agree that the S.Korea should maintain a stronger relationship with USA and Europe right now due to the increasing threat of China. The problem is that S.Korea's biggest exporting partner is China right now and it would be risky to wreck that relationship simply because of economical reasons. But in the broad picture, it would be in Korea's best interest to not be so pro-China and even pro-Japan and rather maintain a strong relationship with the USA and Europe, instead.

Here's an older article that shows Korea must maintain strong relationships with USA and Europe rather than being pro-China/Japan


In whatever Asian alliance there will be, I believe USA will be a key player at least for the initial phase before mutual trust could build up for other constituent parties. I believe China's importance due to trade is overexaggerated, and in the coming future there will be other emerging manufacturing centers like North Korea and India that could replace China's role in South Korean economy today. And besides, China's economic clout is also a reason why we should form up a multilateral alliance or an economic union - if China threatens with a trade sanction, slap them back with a multinational trade sanction that will hurt them even more.
orange peel
^ why not reconciliation with china, you didn't have any problem following the USA which is continuing right now, the occupation of iraq and afghanistan; ex-UN secretary Kofi Annan declared the iraq war to be illegal according to UN charters. the USA is supporting isreal which is responsible for the invasion of lebanon etc etc. not to mention the handful of dictators the US supported when it was in their interest. eg. Saudi Arabia is a monarchy.

list of US supported dictatorships -- common, whos kidding who here

i don't like bringing this up every time and compare Chinese sins with US sins.. something the chinese do are definitely wrong and very corrupt and that definitely needs reform but please don't kidd anyone by saying this is ideological differences and your allies are all such saints and human rights crusaders, everyone's just looking out for their own interests.

plus.. i don't really see how china is responsible for events in NK, Myanmar, Sudan, Zimbabwe etc.. they're their own soveign countries, you don't have to act as their daddies, it's fu-king disgusting how some of the western countries treat all these developing countries like little kids who can't take care of them selfs. we're all adults, we all can make our own decisions. and the US, or any other country does not know what's best for these countries.

i guess that's the ideological difference.. chinese don't like being the world cop
SantaKlaws
QUOTE (orange peel @ Jul 19 2009, 12:58 PM) *
^ sure, 15-20% might not be a huge hit, but why take it if you don't have to, what's the benifit to making another NATO targeting china bring out another cold war.

------------------------------------------

why's there so many every body team up against china proposals.. what'd we ever do to you

north korea, it's it's own country so china can only influence it, and to what extent no one really knows; china's just maintaining the status quo, it even joined the new UN resolution for sanctions against NK, china always follows UN resolutions in it's international policy.

please don't bring up xinjiang, xizang, taiwan.. etc.. those claims were made since the founding of the PRC and can't constitute evidence for imperialism or hegemony.. we didn't make any new claims on territories

i guess we made a few new claims on rocks that nobody's ever really noticed before and are all claiming now.

anyways, everybody's got economic interests with china, i don't think anybody would want to actively antagonize china since china's not really going out of it's way being hostile or militarily agressive with anybody.

---------------------------------------



i hope you don't mean china by "common foe"


QUOTE (orange peel @ Jul 19 2009, 01:22 PM) *
^ why not reconciliation with china, you didn't have any problem following the USA which is continuing right now, the occupation of iraq and afghanistan; ex-UN secretary Kofi Annan declared the iraq war to be illegal according to UN charters. the USA is supporting isreal which is responsible for the invasion of lebanon etc etc. not to mention the handful of dictators the US supported when it was in their interest. eg. Saudi Arabia is a monarchy.

list of US supported dictatorships -- common, whos kidding who here

i don't like bringing this up every time and compare Chinese sins with US sins.. something the chinese do are definitely wrong and very corrupt and that definitely needs reform but please don't kidd anyone by saying this is ideological differences and your allies are all such saints and human rights crusaders, everyone's just looking out for their own interests.

plus.. i don't really see how china is responsible for events in NK, Myanmar, Sudan, Zimbabwe etc.. they're their own soveign countries, you don't have to act as their daddies, it's fu-king disgusting how some of the western countries treat all these developing countries like little kids who can't take care of them selfs. we're all adults, we all can make our own decisions. and the US, or any other country does not know what's best for these countries.

i guess that's the ideological difference.. chinese don't like being the world cop


Those are the differences that will make reconciliation impossible. The rift of disagreement over the fundamentals is too deep and the wall of mistrust is too tall. It's the great irreconciliable impasse.
orange peel
ok, stick with your world police game, because you know so well what's happening inside all these foreign countries, what's good for these developing countries, and that democracy is like some sort of one recipe fits all magic pill that turns all poor @$$ third world countries into developed countries over night.. they all have the intelligence of a fried duck and can't made good decisions for them selfs.

if there's no room for reconciliation then at least there's no reason to start a cold war right?

plus, you never said why you'd think the US's so much better in terms of international human rights
the US treats it's own people alot better than the PRC treats it's own, i'll give you that.
mkfk1
QUOTE
Those are the differences that will make reconciliation impossible. The rift of understanding is too deep and the wall of mistrust is too tall. It's the great irreconciliable impasse.


Who said China wants to "reconcilate" with SK?
SantaKlaws
QUOTE (orange peel @ Jul 19 2009, 01:38 PM) *
ok, stick with your world police game, because you know so well what's good for these developing countries.. they all have the intelligence of a fried duck and can't made good decisions for them selfs.


If this is a world police game, China is the archvillan with slaves(Tibet, East Turkestan) and henchmen(North Korea, Sudan) that systematically murder innocent bystanders(North Koreans, Sudanese) for their loot, with China getting its cut(cheap natural resources) for every murder.

I know you completely disagree with what I just said, so lets just settle on the fact that you and I are on the other side of the great irreconciliable impasse. Oh, and don't forget that you're in Korean Chat, not Chinese Chat.


QUOTE (mkfk1 @ Jul 19 2009, 01:39 PM) *
Who said China wants to "reconcilate" with SK?


Credit goes to orange peel. icon_wink.gif
joolee
I read a latest poll of South Korean citizens that says an overwhelming number of South Koreans think Japan is the most disliked country. Then came North Korea in a distant second, followed by China (I think like 13 percent or something). In other words, most South Koreans do not dislike China, but sure hates Japan. Far more Chinese dislike Korea, than Koreans dislike China.

It's as if China can't do anything wrong to piss off the Koreans. And China does quite a lot of things that should piss off the Koreans like no tomorrow, yet that's not the case.

Going back to this alliance against China topic, I don't think it will ever happen as long as Koreans view China as one great big economic opportunity (in my mind, it's just digging Korea's grave).
orange peel
QUOTE (SantaKlaws @ Jul 19 2009, 12:43 AM) *
If this is a world police game, China is the archvillan with slaves(Tibet, East Turkestan) and henchmen(North Korea, Sudan) that systematically murder innocent bystanders(North Koreans, Sudanese) for their loot, with China getting its cut(cheap natural resources) for every murder.

I know you completely disagree with what I just said, so lets just settle on the fact that you and I are on the other side of the great irreconciliable impasse. Oh, and don't forget that you're in Korean Chat, not Chinese Chat.




Credit goes to orange peel. icon_wink.gif


no no.. i agree that china doing some shady deals.. it's just that i think you're exaggerating it slightly

i just don't understand why you would think the dirty cop aka. USA is any better

i don't see how whether this is korean chat or chinese chat makes any practical differences.. unless i need a visa or something.

and why wouldn't china want to reconcile with SK, it's a pretty big economy on china's borders, and regardless it's always better to have a friend than a foe (international politics isn't a zero sum game)
SantaKlaws
QUOTE (joolee @ Jul 19 2009, 01:45 PM) *
I read a latest poll of South Korean citizens that says an overwhelming number of South Koreans think Japan is the most disliked country. Then came North Korea in a distant second, followed by China (I think like 13 percent or something). In other words, most South Koreans do not dislike China, but sure hates Japan. Far more Chinese dislike Korea, than Koreans dislike China.

It's as if China can't do anything wrong to piss off the Koreans. And China does quite a lot of things that should piss off the Koreans like no tomorrow, yet that's not the case.

Going back to this alliance against China topic, I don't think it will ever happen as long as Koreans view China as one great big economic opportunity (in my mind, it's just digging Korea's grave).


Polls have consistently indicated that Korean view of China is steadily deteriorating. ATM, Korean view of China is evenly divided, and Korean view of China is worse among the younger generation than the older generation. Also, Korean view of Chinese military development is seen negatively by most of the respondents.

Anti-Japanese sentiments is gronded on standardized education and a recent bitter past, and current events act as mere catalysts. Anti-Chinese sentiments, on the other hand, is entirely lead by current events.
mkfk1
QUOTE
I read a latest poll of South Korean citizens that says an overwhelming number of South Koreans think Japan is the most disliked country. Then came North Korea in a distant second, followed by China (I think like 13 percent or something). In other words, most South Koreans do not dislike China, but sure hates Japan. Far more Chinese dislike Korea, than Koreans dislike China.

It's as if China can't do anything wrong to piss off the Koreans. And China does quite a lot of things that should piss off the Koreans like no tomorrow, yet that's not the case.

Going back to this alliance against China topic, I don't think it will ever happen as long as Koreans view China as one great big economic opportunity (in my mind, it's just digging Korea's grave).


There is something your poll doesnt tell:

1) Chinese have no problem organizing anti-japanese protests in China
2) Chinese dont have the same motivation to organize such event for anti-korean movement.
3) The hate toward japan is WW2 related. The hate toward korea is internet flame war related. There is a difference in magnitude.
orange peel
lol.. so it turns out everybody loves japan
RudeAwakening
banned
RudeAwakening
banned
thauxin
indeed S. Korea is very much respectd in means of economy. vietnam looks up to south korea and germany as economy model. in fact vietnamese today love korean so much that no visa required for the S Korean to visit Vietnam for 15 day kiss.gif


hozobo
Flaming
Gooogle
banned
chiuchimu
QUOTE (orange peel @ Jul 19 2009, 12:07 AM) *
lol.. so it turns out everybody loves japan


WW2 happened to our Grand parents, Japan was undeniably barbaric. But no person now nor their parents were alive during WW2. Yet its clear that even today, anti-Japanese sentiment are at their highest even though no transgression was done to them (Korean and Chinese born after WW2).

I ask politely will this institutionalized hatred ever stop? Else, is the plan to go on forever like the blacks in America who blame slavery as the reason today's blacks are still down trodden.

The English and French had wars, but they have a tunnel connecting their two countries now. If you guys can't get over this 'hate' like other countries ultimately do, than neither China, Korea nor Japan is entitle to receive the name "Role Model of the Free Word in East Asia".





Mid-Night_Sun
QUOTE (chiuchimu @ Jul 19 2009, 05:15 PM) *
WW2 happened to our Grand parents, Japan was undeniably barbaric. But no person now nor their parents were alive during WW2. Yet its clear that even today, anti-Japanese sentiment are at their highest even though no transgression was done to them (Korean and Chinese born after WW2).

I ask politely will this institutionalized hatred ever stop? Else, is the plan to go on forever like the blacks in America who blame slavery as the reason today's blacks are still down trodden.

The English and French had wars, but they have a tunnel connecting their two countries now. If you guys can't get over this 'hate' like other countries ultimately do, than neither China, Korea nor Japan is entitle to receive the name "Role Model of the Free Word in East Asia".

i agree. theres no point getting mad with todays japanese for WWII. "sins of the father" isnt it.
Chan-Ho
QUOTE (orange peel @ Jul 18 2009, 09:22 PM) *
^ why not reconciliation with china, you didn't have any problem following the USA which is continuing right now, the occupation of iraq and afghanistan; ex-UN secretary Kofi Annan declared the iraq war to be illegal according to UN charters. the USA is supporting isreal which is responsible for the invasion of lebanon etc etc. not to mention the handful of dictators the US supported when it was in their interest. eg. Saudi Arabia is a monarchy.

list of US supported dictatorships -- common, whos kidding who here

i don't like bringing this up every time and compare Chinese sins with US sins.. something the chinese do are definitely wrong and very corrupt and that definitely needs reform but please don't kidd anyone by saying this is ideological differences and your allies are all such saints and human rights crusaders, everyone's just looking out for their own interests.

plus.. i don't really see how china is responsible for events in NK, Myanmar, Sudan, Zimbabwe etc.. they're their own soveign countries, you don't have to act as their daddies, it's fu-king disgusting how some of the western countries treat all these developing countries like little kids who can't take care of them selfs. we're all adults, we all can make our own decisions. and the US, or any other country does not know what's best for these countries.

i guess that's the ideological difference.. chinese don't like being the world cop



It has nothing to do with being a world cop. At the end of the day, China supports a North Korean regime that murders the spirit of the Korean people. If you can't see why Koreans must embrace an alliance against China's gang of oppressors, than you're just straight up blind.
botay
QUOTE (thauxin @ Jul 18 2009, 11:51 PM) *
indeed S. Korea is very much respectd in means of economy. vietnam looks up to south korea and germany as economy model. in fact vietnamese today love korean so much that no visa required for the S Korean to visit Vietnam for 15 day kiss.gif


who the fu-k are you to speak up for Vietnamese people? Cambodian troll?
jougoo
Flaming
99dolla
QUOTE (botay @ Jul 19 2009, 08:06 PM) *
who the fu-k are you to speak up for Vietnamese people? Cambodian troll?


i am vietnamese kiss.gif it is true that s Korean or Japanese do not need visa to visit Vietnam for 15 day kiss.gif
WolverineGoBlue
banned
kaizen
QUOTE (WolverineGoBlue @ Jul 20 2009, 05:46 AM) *
banned
WolverineGoBlue
banned
mammamia
North Korea was considerably well off than South Korea during 1960s because of Soviet support and mineral rich mines in North Korea.
And South Korea's economic miracle changed South Korea into top economic powerhouse and now one of major exporters of high tech and heavy machinery goods.
But all this was possible because South Korea was democratic nation which values society development and freedom, and now days, South Korea is more freer than Japan. (I know some people will disagreed with this, but it's actually true considering Japan still have some kind of monarchy system).
WolverineGoBlue
banned
mammamia
QUOTE (WolverineGoBlue @ Jul 20 2009, 05:46 AM) *
banned
Joaharu
As of 2009, South Korea is completely controlled by the IMF and World Bank. Since 1997, South Korean interest rates rose shamefully high due to IMF demands on South Korea economic policy, which in turn made earning profits for South Korean banks difficult. If a foreign investor pulls in with hot money into South Korea. Then, that investor will be well rewarded, due to extremely high yield on interest rates. Secondly, in South Korean economics, many South Korean companies and banks are foreign owned. Where fifty percent of the shares of the company of in the hands of foreign interests. Samsung is over 50% foreign owned, Hyundai is also over 50% foreign owned, Korean banks are almost 100% foreign controlled. Shin Han bank is a foreign controlled bank.

The new South Korean economic policy was the result of South Korea's economic problem in 1997. The IMF crashed the growing South Korean economy in 1997 and demanded stringent rules that would make South Korean economic slaves to foreign powers. The end result of the Asian Financial crisis, of which Kim Dae Jung's traitorous policies towards Korea destroyed its sovereignty. The end result of the IMF policies attributed to lower paid salaries, longer working hours, tiny profits earned by Korean companies, and eventually a siphoning off of loot to private off shore accounts. There are more disastrous consequences, these factors have contributed most greatly to South Korea's economic problems. (The price of the Hyundai pony was about 33% cheaper to a comparabe car in 1988. the Hyundai Excel was the best selling compact in America, due to super cheap pricing. Now with westerners siphoning money, Hyundai prices are about 10% cheaper than the competition)

The point is, is that China is the least of South Korea's problems right now. Rising unemployment, lower salaries, have contributed to massive stagnation of South Korea's economy since 1997. You can blame the economic woes to the United States, the IMF, World Bank, and the traitor Kim Dae Jung. In no ways is South Korea the role model of East Asia, since South Korea's economy is in the hands of the foreign powers.

The biggest feeling of anger I have is towards Kim Woo Choong of Daewoo, and General Motors. Since 2001 Daewoo is not a Korean company, but in the hands of a global automobile behemoth like General Motors. I do not understand why South Koreans will work for and buy an Foreign corporation when the profit earned from hard Korean labour will go to American and foreign share holders that partake preferred shares of General Motors. The feeling of disgust is quite evident, when I know that General Motors will earn billions in profit in China due to Korean willing idiocy to serve General Motors. Regardless of what spin and propaganda that vice president Nick Reilly and Michael Grimaldi of GM Daewoo says about Daewoo, GM does not care to make Daewoo a Korean company. The profits earned by GM Daewoo employees will not go back to Korea. And that is the truth.


As for North Korea, I do not understand why so many South Koreans here on this board willing serve the policies of the South Korean government. I mean, do you think that not helping North Korean people is the right solution? I probably have family in North Korea, my blood, that is living in absolute tyranny. Yet many idiot South Koreans are willing to sanction off the very blood that has lived across the border. I say that uninformed support to starve potential North Korean family members is preposterous non-sense.

If argument hinges on the fact that North Korea is developing nuclear weapons, I can rebut that shallow point.

First, European and American powers under the umbrella of Asea Brown Boveri supplied billions of dollars worth of Nuclear technology to North Korea during the Clinton administration. Donald Rumsfeld also happened to be on the board of directors of ABB during the the North Korean nuclear deal. The biggest question remains, why did American powers help North Korea's nuclear ambition when in fact American and European powers began a hit campaign defaming North Korea's nuclear development? It makes more sense that Anglo/American powers set the nuclear proposition up to make North Korea look like a terrorist nation (George Bush labeled North Korea as part of the Axis of Evil). And yes, South Korean companies actually were paid contracts to build the nuclear reactors in North Korea. So the South Korean government is not innocent either

Secondly, who divided North and South Korea to begin with? Kim il Sung under the authority of Joseph Stalin and communist China set to unify the Korean peninsula under the directives of Communist rule. Which a united communist Korea may sound quite ugly, but it would have been a unified country nonetheless. Well, who is the one that interrupted that North Korean plan and put ground troops in Korea to push the North Korean communists forces all the way back to the Yalu River? That is right, the United Nations and Harry Truman. US and UN forces could have united the Korean peninsula under American, or foreign rule when they successfully pushed the North Koreans all the way back the Yalu River. The interesting turn of appeared when suddenly Mao invested thousands of soldiers to fight with North Korea against the US and UN forces.

The question remains, who funded Mao ze Dong into power? Well it turns out that Mao Ze Dong was heavily funded by western central banks. With out Western banking capital, Mao Ze Dong could not have armed himself and his army to run over Pu Yi, the last emporer of China. So, back to North Korea. Mao Ze Dong, under the thumb of Western Powers, found it charitable to help his northern brethren out in Pyong Yang? I would say most doubt that Mao Ze dong was authorised to contribute his forces to push back the US and general MacCarthur back to Seoul.

Which makes me conclude that the entire Korean War was was manipulated and staged to make it appear that communism was on running rampant in the World. This was a time in the 50's obviously when the US despised Communist Russia and Russia returned its vitriol back to capitalist United States. What nobody here understands is that Western Banks funded Vladimir Lenin into power, put Papa Joseph Stalin into Russia. Which Western Banks also controlled who would become the United States President, centralised the banking system in the US under the directors of the Federal Reserve System. It was a match where the banks controlled both sides of the game. And most people here are completely oblivious to that fact.

What remains evident in Korea is that North Korea is being demonized heavily to further centralise Western European power and to destabilise the Korean Peninsula. Though Kim Jong il's chidren were allowed to attend European Schools, none of you guys will ask how on earth would a villain of the world be allowed to have his children attend the finest schools in Europe. Don't you think that the Western powers allowed Kim's children into those schools? That sounds more logical after hearing the facts about North Korea's supposed Nuclear development which was coordinated by Western private corporatins that worked as an arm of European and Western aristocracy.
jougoo
QUOTE (99dolla @ Jul 19 2009, 09:36 PM) *
i am vietnamese kiss.gif it is true that s Korean or Japanese do not need visa to visit Vietnam for 15 day kiss.gif



I guess the vietnamese government figured Vietnam is so crappy that no korean and japanese would want to immigrate anyway.
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