I posted this on "that other forum" and thought it'd be good to get some opinions here as well. Do me a favor, and keep any racial jabs to yourself. Let's see if we can be constructive and try to find a solution to what seems to be a growing problem.

______________________________________________________________________


Ok, every week or so now (and for the past few years it seems) we've been bombarded with headlines ripping foreign teachers to shreds. Some of the accusations are well founded, and many teachers here have witnessed them, but some are just off the wall.

I was reading the Marmot’s tonight
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/08/25/breakn...sh-teachers-up/
and got to wondering what the solution is. I know this is nothing new. I know we have hashed this out many times and threads before. But what I’m wondering is, what would you change? If you had the power, how would you…


-stem the tide of “Tourist Teachers”? (those without VISAs)
-weed out unqualified foreign applicants (is a BA the only answer)?
-confront the growing demand for criminal checks?
-protect the power of the contract?
-ensure all parties are committed to seeing the contract through?
-deal with unqualified Korean English teachers (both in private or public systems)?
-address the reported over-emphasis on English?
-make sure that reporting on the issue was done even handedly?

I know we’ve all thrown out opinions. Whenever these type of scandals come up, everyone seems to pile on. But in those cases, it is usually fueled by some retaliatory anger. Why not take the opportunity now (as it seems we are occasionally being monitored by certain papers) to set out some clear ideas for improvement?


-CC

Liberalize the education system... there are too many regulations put on both public and private schools, there's really no room for varied educational programs in different schools. Hakwons merely fill up the unsatisfied demand.

And all this witch-hunting on "English teachers" as a generalized group should stop. English teachers are varied individuals, and it's up to the hakwons or schools to hire competent English teachers. It's inevitable that some unscrupulous hakwon owners will do cheap or illegal business by hiring cheap English teachers who don't have the credentials. Well, that's capitalism at play.

I think the Korean government should just regulate the system.



Thats just sad. I really believe that the Korean gov't needs to regulate this system. Perhaps even participate in hiring teachers abroad too. And hire only women English teachers. Most foreign male english teachers purposely try to prevent female foreigners from coming to Korea to work so they have less competition. So the problem gets worse.

The Korean government should hire some female english teachers to head up a recruitment effort to hire qualified female teachers overseas, while at the same time kicking out unqualified english teachers already here. Both Korean males and females would rather learn from law abiding female english teachers I am sure of that. All u have to do is hire 3-4 white female english teachers, pay them 100K each to design reccruitment efforts overseas, give them a budget, and they can recruit female teachers overseas. And then hire like 10 people to regulate all the english teachers in the country currently. Jeez it can all be done for like less than a million bucks I bet.

Interesting reply 3K, I've heard you say that before. I'm curious if you know why there are not really all that many foreign women teaching in korea. You mentioned about how men like to keep them away, care to elaborate (it's news to me - honestly)?

Most of the women I know that come to Korea to teach complain just as much or more than the men do here. They face constant harrassment by males here (yes, mostly korean males). We can blame the booze, or the Russian dancing girls, but the reality of it is, western women do not have an easy time in Korea. I think the insentives would have to be pretty high to bring them over.

Already, women from the "west of North America" are the most sought after and can take their pick of jobs and wages (basically considered by most as the top of the food chain here), yet their numbers do not climb.




The recruitment drive is a cool idea, but again, it may come down to the basic question; what motivates people to teach overseas?

FYI, the Korean government does regulate programs like EPIK and GEPIK and they are notorious for the same (and different) problems. How would you like to see them regulate it differently (for 3K or any poster for that matter)?

women lusting for young korean boys?

I think it's a general rule that men, much more so than women, are more willing to go and work alone to a foreign country. Sometimes, it's not even safe for women to walk the streets of their own neighbourhood at night unless with a large company.

To be honest, even some of the western women I've spoken to on internet forums say that they had no idea they could make so much money teaching english. Although I never did it before, I had kyopo friends who did and they told me the market prices and such. I don't think its that hard to pluck some out of say Kansas, ones with 50,000 in college debt right after they graduated, and they want to travel the world, they're sick of war/america/etc... seriously there would be tons, it just never crossed their minds and they don't know what to expect.

I've actually known some western women who wanted to go to Korea to visit for one month or so, and ended up staying for over 7 years. All while she was in her 20s. They just have no idea what to expect. I noticed now they can speak Korean fluently, talk and act like a native korean, and generally don't like hanging around foreigners because they seem too "obtuse" or something like that.

Now I would have no idea what her perspective on this "Korea change" would be for her, because for me, western society has been not the end all perspective in my life, so I would not know what sort of experiences made her want to stay for 7 years on impulse. So thats why I said white women should head the recruitment efforts, cus only white women can truly explain to other white women what their real experiences were like.

In my opinion, they simply do not know what to expect, so they don't want to take the risk. Thats where the white female recruiters should come in and explain what they experienced and what to expect. The white females I've known who stayed for 7 years hung around all native Koreans, and felt like a fob coming back to the US. Those stories and getting them known will def. help drive teacher pedophilia, molestation, and general disatisfaction down.

I think you're right on the mark on this one... but I think it applies to both women and men. In university I saw postings for "teaching overseas" and thought "hmmm, interesting, but I'm not sure I'd want to go somewhere where I have no connections". A few years later it was a female friend in Korea that convinced me otherwise.

You talk about white females (plural) you've known that have been here for 7 years. I'm curious how many you've known that are in that position. I've met all types over here... from 35 years to days... and htey all have different (and often interesting stories). I must say though, out of the hundreds I have met (both through work and casually), most stay less than 2 years (men too, but women seem to be a bit shorter).


Any chance you could get some of these friends of yours to post their experiences on here... I think it would be good for all to hear thier side of it.


Also, I understand your theory that having femal teachers will drive molestation sharges down (females in general are far less likely to commit an act like that), but I have some questions for you:

1-how would you attract more professional females to south korea (I'm talking accredited teachers)?
2-would this reduction of male teachers also include koreans and "overseas koreans"?
3-who do you think runs most recruiting companies?

Here's my obtuse obervations. It looks the segregation between Korean locals and English-speaking expat communities is rather big. Many Koreans hardly ever hear what those expats have in mind. Many of them are short-term residents and couldn't care less about other issues than making money quickly and leaving when the contract is done. And these old-timers, on the other hand, usually develops a love-hate relationship with the place they live in and have a great interest in the local society surrounding them. At times they feel like taking action to make the circumstances better for them and for Koreans. Then, what is the first thing to consider for public awareness? Media. Are there any independent media that serve for the interest of expats in Korea, which also have a tie to the general Korean public, not only those who accidentally stumbled on it and luckily can read English somehow? I'm not asking about those English websites of their own league, if you know what I mean.

The "molesting English teacher" is mainly a myth, which ThreeKingdoms, you have bought hook, line, and sinker. The bad teachers are rarely criminal, but rather just plain bad teachers who have no interest in the country or in actually helping their students. I wonder why you always go after the symptom -- bad foreigners -- and never the cause -- the broken Korean education system, shady employers, the ridiculous demand for English. Most Koreans I talk to see those as the real problems and rarely if ever complain about foreign devil teachers, which, again, are mainly a creation of the tabloids.

You do have a good point about involving foreigners in the hiring process. Presently, the foreign teachers have no significant input into the process. The schools just prefer to surprise us one day with a new face (a handsome one, they hope). Having foreigners conduct real interviews rather than the farcical 5 minute phone calls at present, and doing real reference-checking, could do a lot of good.

Anyway, this post should be required reading:

http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblin...hantom_men.html

^ actually from the anonymous tip off hotlines set up, it does seem like the molesting english teacher is not a myth and indeed real.

foreign molesting english teachers take advantage of many aspects of korean society, such as rape reporting. it is a good thing that anonymous hotlines are now set up to catch these criminals.

also it is important to hire FEMALE foreigners into the Korean government. Too many foreign male english teachers want to see all foreign males have sex or rape korean women, and actively encourage it subtly or outwardly, so they would not be a safe source of recruitment. women understand the need to protect women, so they would be better at recruiting other women.

captain corea, i'll try to get that western girl who lived in korea for 7 years, only hung with natives, and learned korean fluently enough to feel like a fob when she came back to the US... i simply think girls just have a fear of the unknown. but to be honest i doubt she would come here to talk to other english teachers because she really really hated other english teachers in korea.

god damn stop for like one post would you?

^ stop wat? i think captain corea really wants to improve the situation. are u denying him that right?

There definitely is an over-emphasis on English.

English is not necessary to become a developed nation. The japanese are terrible in English but have managed to build the second biggest economy. The Chinese are not known for their stellar English speaking ability but they will have the biggest economy in the world in a few decades.

Using English ability as a major criteria for college admission is a mistake and a big waste of time and resources. This would be comparable in the US to getting admitted to college because you spoke good French.

English shouldn't even be a criteria for getting a job because some jobs don't require English ability and companies can train or offer incentives to learn a language, English or some other language, after hiring.

Here in Malaysia, mass hiring of foreign English teachers stopped quite a long time ago. Back in the 80's the govt. started sending thousands of students to do TESL programs in UK, US & AUS. As these students started to graduate, the foreign teachers were slowly phased out. Nowadays, there are TESL twin-campus (in assoc. with foreign universities) degree courses available in Malaysia so students can get their degrees without the prohibitive cost of studying abroad. I know there are quite a few Koreans studying English in Malaysia because of the low cost and also because English is widely used in everyday conversations.

Maybe this could be the way to solve the "English Dilemma" in Korea...

stop implying that white doods are unequivocably pedo's rapists and perverts.

in. every. god. damn. post. thanx.

u mean in this thread?

have u seen the topic of this thread? its about an english teacher who posted naked pictures of his high school students, in fact, i believe that xanga link was posted here a month or two ago, also this thread is about english teachers who abuse their students, have no credentials etc...

and in my references i said foreign guys. if u want to see a thread about wonderful foreign male english teachers, u obviously chose the wrong thread

my bad...........I must have misread your other thousand posts where it seemed like you disliked white guys and thought they were all sex perverts..........

^ Hey funky, I write about other shiet, like asian american relations, minorities, korean relations, east asian politics...

*removed per request by Jasel*

but for reals, this is a serious issue in korea. if people overseas knew it was a serious problem, we would have less molester english teachers heading to korea too.

but what nobita said sounds really good too.

I'm going to ask you real nice 3K to remove the above comment (joke or not, its in bad taste).



Could you please link to this hot-line?

I agree with you that women would bring a different perspective to the recruiting process, but again, I ask you, howcan you attract them to the job? As it stands, they already have the highest pay and choice positions, why are they not coming over in larger numbers?

Do you think it is possible that many women do not have a good time in Korea? That they are treated poorly and are subject to sexual harrassment?


You know, this is an interesting line. personally, I think that ONE would be too many, but I worry that is not how you wrote it. If you are implying that there are a lot of them, please support yourself with accredited articles or statistics.

Honestly, I would hazard to guess that the numbers of E2 holders being served exit orders by immigration is on par with F4 holders. I think a number of people who come here have a variety of difficulties.



________________________________________________________________________


The problem as I see it is this - not many teachers want to come here. I was in Education back in Uni and have a lot of friends that are teahcing back home. Although they respect my choice and find my stories "cool", none of them want to come here to teach. These are the people that Korea wants (qualified), but they are not coming... why?

-if they leave their jobs they may lose seniority
-the pay here is lower than back home (hogwons pay about $2000 per month, regardless of experience)
-housing for a family is difficult to find/afford
-there is little support (family/friends and such)
-risk


So if Korea wants to recruit more qualified teachers, they're going to have to address these problems.

haha ok ok. i removed it.

to be honest, the women i talked to loved it in korea, esp. the western women i talked to. and like i said, they hung around all native koreans, and for them, talking to a diverse crowd meant talking to kyopos. lolz

a lot of women simply don't know how much money they can make, and if anything, the ones that do go, rather go to Japan since it is seen as a richer country and they don't know about korea as much. thats why its important to actively go to college campuses in the midwest and recruit female english teachers.

now, if more female english teachers come thru better recruitment tactics, then obviously there will be less molestation, abuse, rape incidents, and pressure off of current foreign male english teachers will be reduced. its a win win situation for everyone.

Personally, I'm fine with mroe females coming over here... I may be married, but it's always nice to meet "normal" foreign girls (just to talk to). Maybe you're right about them not knowing, but at my Uni the postings were up on the wall and both sexes could (and did) read them.

Maybe it's what another poster had mentioned that men are just mroe adventurous?

^ to be honest, all most people know about korea in isolated places are probably episodes of MASH.

guys will get images of being heroic Army GI's that can sweep a woman off her feet and give her a visa, an image portrayed so often in American media. While women don't have many images to go on. In general these images tend to be false as well from the real experience.

thats why supplemental recruitment is necessary to fix the image problem as well. and no single hakwon is going to take the extra expenses to do it, the goverment has to do it.

all u would need are posters of Won Bin type models smiling charmingly talking to an average white female teacher who is blushing shyly talkng to him, and have the poster say "TEACH English in Korea, you won't regret it" blah blah etc...

the imagery is key.

Ok, I'm cool with more girls coming (I think we can agree with that), but the next step is qualified ones. A good teacher is rarely determined by sex (male or female), how would you propose getting qualified people over here?

^ The posters with Mr. Sexy Won Bin will say so. Every sorority house in America should get a Mr. Sexy Won Bin Teach me English Plz packet.

Mr. Sexy Won Bin will discourage loser unqualified male teachers from coing here, cus they know they can't compare to him, and then from there 90% of the problem is solved.

Do you really think that they (loser unqualified male teachers ) would really worry about being compared to Won Bin? From some of those same "losers" that I have met (and I have also met my fair share of them) they seem fairly oblivious to a lot of things.

Ha ha, here you have an interesting point. Funny but true. We tend to overlook how simple and somewhat vague images can potentially lead to something more. They need some interesting pictures in their mind to begin with than the prevalent images of impoverished Korea in MASH half a darn century ago. This is not just about English teacher recruiting. Get images about Korea from MASH or some recent cool Korean movies? You see the difference.

I came to Korea from the kind of Midwest recruting program 3k recommends. It wasn't a total disaster but it was a far cry from success.

It began with high hopes. 41 teachers, fresh out of a Midwestern uni, were picked. The government promoted it as a long-term partnership, which the uni viewed as a feather in its cap as its faculty were told they would be equal partners. Early warning signs were that

a) literally every applicant but 2 were accepted
b) only 3 had ever taught before, only 2 had a B.Ed, only 1 had a TESOL
c) the Koreans who spoke with the Americans actually were not the people with decision-making power

In short, the Korean government was not interested in finding qualified teachers, but rather in avoiding recruiter's fees. Shadiness set in early as contracts were violated, promises broken, and communication with the USA cut off. A revolving door of Koreans were put in charge but given no power, and several of them were straight assholes. The university, feeling betrayed and cut out of the loop, bailed.

Most of the teachers were totally unprepared to teach in Korea. Most quit after one year or moved into a hagwon for better pay, and by my count only 2 developed any interest at all in Korean language and culture, which supposedly had been one of the progam's goals. A fresh batch came the second year and then the program died.

captain corea, most of those loser english teachers were fed American media propoganda that pairs ugly loser white males with all types of Asian women. So they go to Korea thinking that this dream will come true.

For them to see a Won Bin talking to white female poster will not only bring them back to earth, but shatter their overexaggerated self image by seeing such things before they consider going to Korea.

doggyji, yeah imagery is hella important. it is extremely rare to find a good looking asian male (look up william hung) on american television. granted not everyone in korea will look like Won Bin, but even the good looking Asian men don't get to be on TV, only super geeky ones (plz look up William Hung) A poster of Mr. Sexy Won Bin learning english from average Susie Q plastered all over American campuses will be huge.

flower pig - that really sucks. but i really believe what was missing was those won bin posters and hiring white female recruiters...
Come on Won Bin Teach Me English Posters!!!! just splurge a little on Won Bin posters and white female recruiters.

why do english teachers in korea have to appear 100% caucasian with blonde hair and blue eyes? why not just hire the most qualified people

^because only white ppl can speak perfect english right?

i think it would be more practical for koreans to learn chinese rather than english considering most korean business nowadays is done just across their borders. i guess things will start to get really $hitty when they start hiring whites to teach chinese, lol.

My Korean language GTA was working on his Phd about the effects of MASH on American perspectives of Korea....




you were drunk last night huh?

^ lolz nah, im stuck at home for a week cus i had knee surgery, i think i was overdosed on vicodin. haha that reminds me i need some vicodin...

sounds like you do

I guess I should've mentioned that half of the teachers recruited in my program were white females.

I think the moral of my story is that the root problem is not males vs. females but the lack of clarity in Korean thinking about what they want from foreign teachers. This program obviously wasn't founded to draw qualified teachers -- it failed miserably from the start if that was its goal. No, its goal was to avoid recruiter's fees, and at that it succeeded wildly. What was missing was not Won Bin posters but a commitment on the part of the Koreans to finding good teachers for their own country.

Unfortunately, blaming Koreans is no fun. It's a lot more fun to bash a handful of badly-behaved white devils. Sells more newspapers too.

^ well i am sure there were no child molestors from ur recruiting class. half being white females would mean that the other half males would behave better knowing that they know each other and stuff.

if u know anyone in ur recruiting class that did molest or behave inappropriately, please post it here.

Do you really think that a child molester of any race would be detered by members of the opposite sex being arounds them? I can't say that I know the mind of those sickos, but I have a feelingthat they would find a way to do whatever it is they do no matter what.

Why not address Flower Pig's main point 3K? Maybe because it doesn't support the direction you want to head?

^ im just supporting my idea. u wanted ideas right?

lets say his class had no child molestors, and his class was half female, well that only proves my theory more. i mean, do u really think any of the english teachers who give english teachers a bad name came from his class? it sounds a LOT LESS likely.

Not to me. I think those freaks could be anywhere. Even...



Korean American! *shock*


(actually, not to push my point, but the last big news article about an American touching the underwear of a young student was a Korean Ameican - personally though, the case sounded weak - but it didn't stop the papers from printing that a foreigner had touched a little girl)

im pretty ashamed about some korean american guy who printed false diplomas for english teachers to forge. i read about that.

and teachers shouldn't be touching little girls period.

3-K
I'm sorry man but most (if not all) of the whhite female teachers I spoke with in Korea hated teaching english there. They might like their students but all the other aspects they pretty much hated. Dealing with the hagwons was awful they said, contracts were rarely honored, the social scene sucked for them (most were bitter at white guys who mostly liked the local korean girls and the girls didn't seem that willing to give local korean guys a chance). The majority of western girls don't seem to have good experiences there. Korean-American or other Kyopos may have a better experience but then again they are less sought after b/c they don't have a "white face." Bottom line, I think attracting significantly more western females is not likely.

And Funky is right, you may not say it overtly here but you are still implying that white males are not appropriate for teaching in Korea b/c they can't be trusted to not rape and molest korean girls. That's rediculous... This thread is very typical of mind set that if one foreigner does something awful then the whole korean public should pile on that group. There are probably thousands of english teacher in korea, a few do some really bad stuff then all of the sudden it highlights the actions of ever person in that group and then they must all be bad. It's pure crap. Ex-pats in Korea (and in shanghai or HK for that matter) act much like the english teachers but for some reason they get a free pass b/c they are professional and affluent. The media has focused on the english teachers and now they are heavliy scrutinized and criticized.

If you want real reform then concentrate on getting more qualified candidates regardless of gender. Quit making broad generalizations about groups (i.e. all male english teachers). Finding new and different ways to sheild the native korean females from white males is not an answer, your proposal is just another way to protect the precious pure asian females.

Your idea about the won bin poster was just comical. c'mon, you think white girls will think Korean guys all look like that or that mr. loser white guy will worry about that either? Like anything else, throw money at the problem, give good salaries, good benefits and heavily screen candidates. The recruiters idea is good, i think that combined with some media (commercials on local tv in college towns) would help attract more potential teachers.

Hope the knee heals well, be careful with the vicodin, don't become Bret Favre

^ thats weird because like I said, the white females that I know that loved Korea and stayed for many years, didn't like talking with foreigners. they truly become fluent in Korean and hung out only with Koreans. And TRUST ME, they date Koreans guys... LOLZ I known several white female english teachers just there for one year that were very very very...... well dated quite a bit of Korean guys. LOLZ for some reason during 2002-2003 all the foreign guys were complaining that only weird girls would talk to them, meaning divorced, with kids, ugly, etc...so that was what i saw and what i heard.

yes, imagery is very very important. I mean think about what sort of shock waves Bruce Lee sent thru America when he first came out.

obviously a white woman will be much more understanding of these problems. it is shame that u are not as open minded as the white girls I know who learned to speak Korean pretty fluently and loved it there and know how to fix the English teacher problems. but i udnerstand, as u are not korean, nor are u a woman, so u have no interest in preventing John Karr types with no degrees from proliferating in Asia.

thanks for the wish btw, it feels a lot better.

You knew a lot of foreign women who learned fluent Korean? The number of English teachers who can hold even a basic conversation in Korea is less than 1% I would guess.. actual fluency? You are probably talking about less than 50 in the entire country. Frankly, I find this story difficult to believe.

I still wonder why you have no criticism for Koreans who take no steps to keep out people with criminal histories or lack of qualifications.

Captain Corea,

Actually I recall he was accused of touching the girl's bra strap. Personally I think he was innocent and got a bum rap.

This has turned into the which nationality inside Korea has the most peverted people thread. So far, this thread is making English-speaking Caucasian men and Korean men look bad.

From personal experience, I can think of only 3 white women I met with any Korean ability at all, but I can think of 7 who went out on dates with Korean men just off the top of my head.

But I have no difficulty in believing 3K's story at all. Everyone's experience is different. I mean, we are talking about a whole country here.

If he said he knew one.. and that they were buds and she shared a lot of info with him, I'd believe it. But when he starts to use plurals, plus 7 years, plus fluent... I start to doubt as well. I'm not saying it isn't true, but the odds are against it. That being said though, there are F2 associations here in Korea that cater to brining long timers (married to Koreans) together. In those groups (of which I am a part) many people have a variety of language skills.

flower pig - yeah, you're right. It sounded bogus and was totally overblown in the media. I hope he was able to clear his name a bit.


3K, we've agreed that mroe female teachers are fine (although we may differ on the reasoning behind bringing them) but I still feel that we are lacking any real motive for them to come over here. I know, I know, you keep talking about some poster and such... but I was hoping for something a little more practical.

Any other (realistic) ideas from the folks out there?

Nobody can clean up the industry except Koreans themselves. They just have to realize that when stories of $hit hagwons, broken contracts, and disinterested labor boards go around the world, good teachers go elsewhere, even though for lower pay.

I mean even public schools sometimes try to screw their teachers here. I remember in the beginning of our program, a bunch of the schools tried to force their new foreigners to sign a second contract, and it was all laughed off as some kind of misunderstanding due to "foreign teachers being a new and rare thing in Korea". What a crock, and what idiots we were to fall for it.

Are you the same Three-Kingdoms that had the LA hat and the hyphen before or are you two different posters w/ similar names, I'm confused....

Anyway, i doubt that you met that many girls that spoke fluent korean after an english teaching stint, not that it does not happen and that there are examples of people like this but its not the majority, if anything its the rare exception. I have spent a pretty good amount of time in Korea over the past few years and met a total of... zero.

I really take exception to the comment that i have no interest in keeping John Karr types from proliferating in Asia, or anywhere for that matter. I may not be Korean and I may not be female but in no way does that mean I can not be concerned for the well being of children and keeping psychotic child molesters from harming them, that comment is complete bullsh*t on your part. To imply that because someone does not agree with your position that only female westerns should be hired to teach abroad does not mean the support people like John Karr you a$$hole. Just because i believe there are decent qualified white males that can do a job (like Captn Corea for example) does not mean I support any piece of sh*t white guy that wants to go to asia and rape little girls. You are making a big leap there that is completely inappropriate.

My reaction is pretty severe b/c what that comment implies is a complete indifference on my part to something that is a grotesque injustice.